To think chivalry is dead?

[CrispyBanger]

Got the train home today from London at rush hour. It was packed, not a spare seat to be had. At the front of the train there are always a few unreserved seats, including 3 sets of priority seating and 2 tables. I sat in a priority seat. Of the other priority seats, 3 were taken by men with a further 7 men in the table seats.

Obviously pregnant lady (with a baby on board badge for extra measure) got on and stood in the aisle as it was so packed. I looked around expecting someone i.e. a man to offer their seat but no one did. I stood up and she took my seat.

Now, obviously there's a slim chance that the other people in the priority seating had non-visible seating needs but it's unlikely they all did. Am I showing my age or is it no longer the done thing to offer a seat to the elderly/pregnant ladies etc?

Incidentally, when I stood in the aisle a man sat at the table offered me his seat . So he didn't feel like he should offer it to a heavily pregnant lady but he did to a an obviously non pregnant lady?

@Vashna, your definition of integrity and respect clearly differ wildly from mine. I would never consider a man lacking in integrity because he walked through a door before me. To me, integrity and respect is about honesty, trust, being dependable and showing common courtesy to others regardless of their sex.

JaquesHammer - yes, you may well call me crackers, but I’m starting to think this is something you either grasp or you don’t. If women just don’t see something, then nothing I can say will make any difference, will it? We all relate to men in our own ways I guess, so if you want a man who treats you kindly, but no different than one of his mates or other men, then that’s your choice. I would find that utterly depressing and a total turn off personally, but each to their own.

so if you want a man who treats you kindly, but no different than one of his mates or other men, then that’s your choice

How are you getting that from what I'm posting?

There is a massive difference between "treating no different from one of his mates" and treating me as a delicate flower.

You're absolutely right in the "you either grasp or you don't" statement

but I’m starting to think this is something you either grasp or you don’t.

Yes you don't grasp it.

My Dp is kind, he treats me amazingly. He doesn't see me as someone frail who needs to walk into a room first, or needs his protection.

At times, when I have struggled like when my son went away with out me for the first time after I divorced. He was totally there for me, in a way he wouldn't be for friends. He made me a cuppa and made some dinner. He checked I was ok and planned some activities to take my mind off missing my son.

That was kind and considerate.

I want a man, Infact any men, to not patronise me or make assumptions based simply on the fact I am a woman!

"You don't have to make a big point of rejecting him. At all." Great. What do you suggest I do then?

"He does see you as lesser." Have you met him? No? Then let's agree that I know him better than you do, shall we? Trust me, he doesn't see me as lesser.

"You are saying he has been brought up to believe it's polite to assume women need his protection or need him to do something for him." No, he doesn't walk on the inside because he thinks I need him to do it. He doesn't hold open doors for women because he thinks they otherwise wouldn't manage. He's been brought up that doing so is polite. You may think he should not have been brought up that way, but that's what's happened.

"Parents walk on the outside to protect their kids, because kids have a habit of doing silly things that put them in danger. Does he think that of you?"

That may be why you walk on the outside, if indeed you do. But don't make assumptions about why others do it, thanks. My kids aren't, in fact, in the habit of doing silly things that put them in danger. They're not toddlers any more and are pretty well-behaved. But I still walk on the outside. Because although they don't do silly things, you can't legislate for silly things drivers do, and if anything along those lines happens, I'd rather I was on the outside than the DC.

DH's motives for walking on the outside when it's the two of us would probably be similar, I imagine. He doesn't think I'm likely to randomly wander into the road, he's just been brought up that walking on the outside is polite, and if he were pressed to analyse why, he'd probably come up with a similar motivation to the one I describe above.

I don’t want to be treated like one of his mates. What an odd thing to say. I’m his wife and his lover. What I want and expect is for him to treat me the same way I treat him. I don’t need someone to protect me as a concept. Obviously if I was about to fall over or needed physical help in any given situation I’d expect it from him but in the same way that I’d give the same back.

Likewise with our children. Neither DH nor I are hoping DD will meet a man who’ll protect and provide for her any more than we hope the boys will find partners who’ll do the same. I hope for certain qualities in their chosen partners but these aren’t different for my son’s and daughter.

Flowery, regarding the pavement thing, that’s all well and good as long as your DH always chooses to walk on the outside regardless of who he’s with and whether it’s a man or a woman. If it’s merely done out of politeness then he would do it when walking with a male friend too. But if he only does it when walking with a woman then that really is bonkers.

sons

Sadly there is still only equal rights when it suits men.
Now we have all these so called equal rights women have to do everything they did before plus loads more.
Women still do the majority of childcare and housework in these so called equal times.

”Flowery, regarding the pavement thing, that’s all well and good as long as your DH always chooses to walk on the outside regardless of who he’s with and whether it’s a man or a woman. If it’s merely done out of politeness then he would do it when walking with a male friend too. But if he only does it when walking with a woman then that really is bonkers.”

I don’t know what he’d do to be honest. I think he probably would but if I’m honest I do think he is more likely to do it with women. It may well be bonkers, I don’t disagree with you at all on that. Clearly it is, really! But that doesn’t mean it’s not done out of politeness, if he’s been brought up that doing it for women is politeness.

I don’t know why people have to be so extreme and binary about everything. My husband does not see me as “a flower” or whatever someone said above. He sees me as a woman - as distinct to a man. This is why he would open a car door for me, but he would not do that for a man. None of these things are in any way a big deal in themselves and largely unconscious to be honest. But I think it’s disingenuous to feign amazement and disbelief about chivalry as if it’s something totally mystifying.

Supposing you went in a date with a man. There was one seat on the tube - he sat in it. He got into the taxi before you, walked into the restaurant ahead and let you follow him, let you pay the bill, didn’t offer to take you home /get you a cab, etc etc - hopefully you get the idea. Would you seriously be seeing him again? I doubt it. So why pretend to be oblivious to manners as they apply in a male / female dynamic?

• Chivalry is an outdated concept.

Kindness is not. *

@JacquesHammer ^ this. Exactly this.

Not in my house. We all pull our weight. We all cook, clean and pick up after ourselves.

We both got up in the night. We both changed nappies. We both cooked and cleaned.

If a woman chooses a partner, moves in and realises he expects her to take on more of the domestic stuff, she must nip it in the bud immediately. None of this ‘oh I’ll play good little housewife and he’ll think it’s wonderful living with me’ bullshit. Start as you mean to go on.

If you plan to have kids, talk it through. Who will do what? Do not under any circumstances give up your job and source of income unless you are fully protected financially and have access to all funds.

So many women complain but they allow it to slowly happen over the years. Hopefully, young women these days won’t stand for it and young men won’t expect it either.

Vashna, that date sounds fine by me. The idea that a man always pays on the first date makes me cringe. Surely it’s Dutch all the way?

Open your own door!

You seem to want to paint women as some sort of helpless species!

And I’m honestly not being goady but walking into the taxi or restaurant before me?!? I can honestly say, hand on heart that neither of those things would even register with me. Although in terms of taxis, I think most polite adults assume that whoever opens the door holds it and enters last. But that could just as easily be me as dh.

Looking, be serious - if you were out with your husband or on a date, or with any man for that matter, and there was one seat on the train and he just plonked himself in it, you are honestly saying you’d be fine with that? Sorry, I don’t believe you wouldn’t even be slightly .

It sounds as though, in your marriage, you’d expect him to hail the taxi, hold open the door and let you walk in before him. And that’s fine, as that’s what you both want and and both happy to facilitate.

The problem lies with expecting that other women also want and/or expect these things and worse, that other perfectly polite well mannered men who don’t engage in them are somehow lacking in manners. This is simply not true.

Nor is it true that I’m a delicate flower or the other conclusions PPs seem to make.

Honestly, he’d offer it to me, I’d offer it to him and whoever needed it most at the time would take it.

Looking, be serious - if you were out with your husband or on a date, or with any man for that matter, and there was one seat on the train and he just plonked himself in it, you are honestly saying you’d be fine with that?

If there’s only one seat it wouldn’t be an issue, we’d stand together so we could continue chatting.

If it were, in some bizarre universe, compulsory to take that seat it would be whichever of us needed it more on that occasion.

He got into the taxi before you

I’d rather he did so he could shuffle across!

walked into the restaurant ahead and let you follow him

And held the door for me to take? Not seeing a problem.

Let you pay the bill

Depends whose turn it was

With any potential partner/date I’m far more interested in them as a person rather than adherence to an antiquated moral code.

Bertrand, I know I was arguing against the "you want equality" argument, not you!

Well that’s fair enough for you JaquesHammer and for you Looking, but maybe other people are different for whatever reason. They are not antiquated. I’m not a loon (not on this issue anyway) and DH is fairly normal and similar to other men he / we know who are in their 40s now.

I’m 47 btw. But then maybe it’s upbringing. Neither of our mothers stayed at home. Both were high achieving professionals who considered themselves equal to their husbands and neither of us grew up with the concept of ‘blue jobs and pink jobs’ to coin a phrase used by a certain high achieving woman trying to pretend she’s subordinate to her husband.