To think chivalry is dead?

[CrispyBanger]

Got the train home today from London at rush hour. It was packed, not a spare seat to be had. At the front of the train there are always a few unreserved seats, including 3 sets of priority seating and 2 tables. I sat in a priority seat. Of the other priority seats, 3 were taken by men with a further 7 men in the table seats.

Obviously pregnant lady (with a baby on board badge for extra measure) got on and stood in the aisle as it was so packed. I looked around expecting someone i.e. a man to offer their seat but no one did. I stood up and she took my seat.

Now, obviously there's a slim chance that the other people in the priority seating had non-visible seating needs but it's unlikely they all did. Am I showing my age or is it no longer the done thing to offer a seat to the elderly/pregnant ladies etc?

Incidentally, when I stood in the aisle a man sat at the table offered me his seat . So he didn't feel like he should offer it to a heavily pregnant lady but he did to a an obviously non pregnant lady?

Chivalry is stupid and outdated - men and women should show equal consideration to each other. I hold doors open for people coming behind me and give up seats to those that look like they need it more than me - I don't look around in the hope that a man does it for me instead!!!

But, we can't deny that some women do have women-related health issues. Surely you must have friends/sisters/mothers who have had bad periods/pregnancies/menopause? Just saying 'no, not me!' isn't helpful

I have a menstrual condition. I wouldn’t need a seat for 26 days out of 28.

And asking for a seat? When a woman dares to mention periods in parliament related to a valid economic argument she is shot down because it's 'private women's business' you expect a menopausal woman to ask for a seat?

Yes, it’s not difficult. “Excuse me I really need to sit down, would you mind”

I have yet to see anyone try that and be refused. I certainly wouldn’t refuse a request of that nature.

"Of course chivalry is dead, most men are terrified to anything these days."
Do you really believe this? Do you believe that all the nice, kind, thoughtful considerate men are terrified to do the nice, kind, thoughtful, considerate things they used to do?

But, we can't deny that some women do have women-related health issues.

And some men have health issues too. It's such a ridiculous argument.

"odds are that a proportion of the women may that day be suffering silently."
And odds are that a proportion of the men will have been doing hard physical work all day...

BertrandRussell

"Men are far too worried to do anything for women these days just in case they are labelled sexist for being a gentleman"
This sort of thing really pissed me off. Nice, kind, thoughtful men don't feel like this at all. Because they have always treated women nicely, kindly and thoughtfully.

I'm not sure Bertrand. I think it is something of a minefield and in my experience men are being more sensitive and in some cases this leads to confusion.

Would a man give up his seat to another seemingly able bodied man? Of course not. So why do it for a seemingly able bodied woman?

Re the elderly - I think this is a minefield. My teenager gave up his seat for a woman who could only have been in her mid 50's (so obviously geriatric in my son's eyes). She politely declined and thanked my son but you could tell she was rather embarrassed by the whole thing. I have a horrible feeling it might have been the first time this had happened to her. I guess this will come to us all !

So obviously pregnant (and I am talking later stages or wearing a badge), obviously very old or walking with a stick, anybody on crutches etc etc.... these are the easy ones.

If you give your seat to anyone else - it means you are making a guess that their need to sit down is going to greater than your own. If man gives up his seat to an attractive woman it could come across as creepy, if she "looks" like she might be pregnant but you're not sure...I am guessing most men nowadays will err on the side of caution. If she is less than say mid 70's then, given my auntie's reaction you risk making her paranoid about old she is starting to look.

Which is why I guess it is just easier to sit and stare at your phone

Katri0na my DD would wipe the floor with most of the boys in her class, and in the year above. She can, and does, stick up for herself.

I don't think my DH could actually manage to sit down while I'm standing if there were only one seat. He would be embarrassed to do so, it wouldn't occur to him as being acceptable. And he'd always walk on the outside of the pavement too. Nothing to do with protecting my crinoline from being splashed by a passing carriage , but for the same reason I always walk on the outside of a narrow pavement when I'm walking with DC - the inside is safer.

I don't think he'd jump up and offer a seat to any able-bodied-looking person just because they are female, but do I think his threshold of "does this person look like they need a seat more than me" would be lower for women than for men.

but do I think his threshold of "does this person look like they need a seat more than me" would be lower for women than for men.

Why?

If walking on the inside is significantly safer, why don't you do it for him? Is his risk of being hurt not a consideration?

But i do think his threshold of "does this person look like they need a seat more than me" would be lower for women than for men

Based on what?

I've told this so many times on here. DD was nearly 4, I was 8.5 months pregnant, a woman expected either me or DD to give up our seat on the bus for an elderly woman. I couldn't balance as my centre of gravity was out and anyway I was as entitled to the seat as she was, DD couldn't balance because she was 3, the other woman suggested she sat on my lap, I pointed to the tiny space between my belly and the seat and said, "Where?" This woman (not the elderly woman) caused an almighty row which ended in her calling my husband an oik.

To all the PPs who think I’m talking twaddle.

Of course, I do lots of kind things for DH, but I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about particular gestures men tend do do for women because it’s gentlemanly. It’s sad that some women are too insecure (in my view) to be able to accept this.

You can pooh pooh gentlmsnly behsviour all you like, but go to a country like Japan where the concept of chivalry has never existed in the same way. You will realise how much you take for granted when men will never let you walk first into a room, push in front of you in queues, let doors slam in your face, nearly push you over to squeeze on trains first, etc. This is what I call entitled behaviour. No, a lack of chivalry clearly does not translate into greater equality for all because I would argue Japan is a more rigidly sexist society than Britain.

Why do I need to walk into a room before a man?

Francine nobody kills spiders in our house. We live in the UK. Any of us would kill a dangerous spider that we'd found in bananas if we couldn't capture it safely and take it to the zoo.

Exactly Sirzy

["but do I think his threshold of "does this person look like they need a seat more than me" would be lower for women than for men."]

"Why?"

Not being inside his head I would have to guess, but my guess would be that is what he was brought up to do. He was brought up that doing that is polite and good manners.

"If walking on the inside is significantly safer, why don't you do it for him? Is his risk of being hurt not a consideration?"

It's not like we have a discussion when walking on a pavement about who should walk on the inside and assess who is at greater risk of being hurt! He just automatically walks on the inside because (as above) that was presumably what he was brought up to do in terms of being polite. He was, I imagine, taught that you open doors for ladies and all the stuff people are talking about on this thread.

I could either make a big point of rejecting his courtesy, or I could go with it. I choose to go with it, secure in the knowledge that he doesn't somehow see me as being lesser than him.

Sirzy - you don’t NEED to fgs. It’s the difference between a man who has a sense of integrity and respect, as opposed to one who doesn’t. It’s a shame some women seem oblivious to this. I can’t even believe I have to explain it tbh.

Sirzy - you don’t NEED to fgs. It’s the difference between a man who has a sense of integrity and respect, as opposed to one who doesn’t. It’s a shame some women seem oblivious to this. I can’t even believe I have to explain it tbh

You’re having to explain it because you’re making no sense.

If a group of people are walking into a room, it’s utterly nonsensical to start faffing about with me stepping out of the way so women can go first. It isn’t respectful or lacking thereof in any way.

I’m secure in my position and therefore don’t need outdated obsequies. I’d rather us all get in or get out so we can crack on!

I’m loving the idea that going into a room before a woman is equating to a lack of integrity.

How delightfully crackers

I wouldn't expect any random man to stand up and let me have their seat on a train. But now I'm thinking about it, I'm thinking about the various men I know, and considering if we were travelling on a train together and there was one seat, whether any of them would sit in it themselves rather than offer it to me. I can't think of any man I know who would do that tbh. Interesting.

Totally squirming at
*
I'm afraid I don't want to be lumped in and equalised. I quite like being a lady and treated like one.*

shudder

Hate the word "lady" and the connotations that go with it. The little woman who shouldn't show her ankles.

My DH would stand for a pregnant woman without hesitation, and I will teach my son to do the same. But so will I. Because this isn't a sex thing; it's a manners thing.

The really sad thing on this thread is the women who would somehow see perfectly well mannered, well brought up young men as somehow ill mannered simply because it wouldn’t occur to them that an able bodied young woman would either need a seat more than them, need to walk through a door first or need to walk on the inside of the pavement.

I’ve taught my boys to hold doors for those behind and if it’s in their hand, to step back and hold it for anyone coming towards them. They also know to give up a seat for anyone more in need and to be mindful of those around them. I’d be doing a disservice to them, their future partners and their sister if I had suggested they treat women differently with regards manners.

I’m talking about particular gestures men tend do do for women because it’s gentlemanly. It’s sad that some women are too insecure (in my view) to be able to accept this.

But why?! Why are those particular gestures 'gentlemanly'? Why would we continue to expect men to do those things when everybody who's not a complete dinosaur knows that it's completely unnecessary? Women do not need to be treated in this way, and many of us do not like to be. It's not polite, it's utterly archaic and silly. Giving up your seat for a person who is elderly or visibly frail, ill or otherwise physically incapacitated is the right thing to do. Giving up your seat to someone purely on the basis of their sex is ridiculous.

I do lots of kind things for DH, but I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about particular gestures men tend do do for women because it’s gentlemanly.

You do kind things for him, but would have strip if he sat down on a train? Why do you do kind things for him, only if they don't fall into the gentlemanly category? Is his self esteem that low? You make assumptions about others self esteem, is that what this is? About you massaging his ego or him massaging yours? Does it boost your self esteem?

I could either make a big point of rejecting his courtesy, or I could go with it. I choose to go with it, secure in the knowledge that he doesn't somehow see me as being lesser than him

You don't have to make a big point of rejecting him. At all. He does see you as lesser. You are saying he has been brought up to believe it's polite to assume women need his protection or need him to do something for him.

Parents walk on the outside to protect their kids, because kids have a habit of doing silly things that put them in danger. Does he think that of you?

I always let men to go in first if it's unfamiliar sorrounding. Actually I let anyone of any gender go first. Especially in pubs. If there is a fight in there (which it never is, but better safe than sorry😂) it gives me better chance to back off.

It shouldn't be about "Men should do this for women". It should be "People do this for other people". One can and should be polite no matter what gender.