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AIBU?

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Original poster

To think chivalry is dead?

426 replies

CrispyBanger · 18/07/2018 20:52

Got the train home today from London at rush hour. It was packed, not a spare seat to be had. At the front of the train there are always a few unreserved seats, including 3 sets of priority seating and 2 tables. I sat in a priority seat. Of the other priority seats, 3 were taken by men with a further 7 men in the table seats.

Obviously pregnant lady (with a baby on board badge for extra measure) got on and stood in the aisle as it was so packed. I looked around expecting someone i.e. a man to offer their seat but no one did. I stood up and she took my seat.

Now, obviously there's a slim chance that the other people in the priority seating had non-visible seating needs but it's unlikely they all did. Am I showing my age or is it no longer the done thing to offer a seat to the elderly/pregnant ladies etc?

Incidentally, when I stood in the aisle a man sat at the table offered me his seat Confused. So he didn't feel like he should offer it to a heavily pregnant lady but he did to a an obviously non pregnant lady?

OP posts:
JacquesHammer · 19/07/2018 12:02

They are not antiquated

Of course the concept of chivalry is antiquated.

As I said earlier, the concept of kindness and decency isn’t. And that is equally applicable to both sexes.

Alicatz66 · 19/07/2018 12:31

I agree with you OP ... I know chivalry is an outdated concept .. but men with good manners are a great thing ... it's nice when they give up their seats or walk on the outside of the pavement

TornFromTheInside · 19/07/2018 12:38

There's some massive extrapolations and sweeping generalisations being made.

It's actually nice to get along with the opposite sex. Sometimes we both make gestures that are slightly different from those we would make towards the same sex. It isn't flirting or sexual, it's just something we do from time to time because we are actually meant to get along (I believe). For men, giving up a seat is just a nice gesture that helps reinforce that we aren't all tossers.

It's not about women being weaker or less capable.

Obviously giving up a seat for someone who is in greater need is just what any decent person would do (imo).

I have never once had anybody moan when asked if they like to sit.

If this is high drama, misogyny, sexism... then there's no bloody hope for any of us.

Shortstuff08 · 19/07/2018 12:44

I can't believe some women think that because a man doing these things, shows care and affection, that everyone should agree.

Making assumptions that someone wants something doing for them or needs protecting because there are a woman is sexist.

Great. What do you suggest I do then?

Talk to him.

He's been brought up that doing so is polite. You may think he should not have been brought up that way, but that's what's happened.

What's the rationale behind it? Why can't he break the habit? He could, he chooses not to.

Because although they don't do silly things, you can't legislate for silly things drivers do, and if anything along those lines happens, I'd rather I was on the outside than the DC.

So they need protecting? You feel you being on the outside is protecting them. Why does he think you need protecting?

flowery · 19/07/2018 14:37

"Talk to him." Why? He's happy, I'm fine with it, and talking to him would involve rejecting his courtesy.

"What's the rationale behind it?"

The rationale behind him being brought up that way? Well I don't know, you'd have to ask his parents, but I guess because historically, that was what was normal and expected and considered by large portions of society to be good manners.

"Why can't he break the habit? He could, he chooses not to."

I didn't say he couldn't break the habit. Confused He's not been seeking to break it! Yes he probably could if he chose to.

"So [DC] need protecting? You feel you being on the outside is protecting them. Why does he think you need protecting?"

He doesn't think I need protecting. He wants to protect me and would rather if one of us gets injured by a car or something, that it was him rather than me. I could either just let him do that, or I could insist on me walking on the outside sometimes just to make the point. I do the former.

Shortstuff08 · 19/07/2018 14:49

Why? He's happy, I'm fine with it, and talking to him would involve rejecting his courtesy

You asked how you should approach it. I didn't tell you, that you should. Just answered your question.

It makes no sense that a man would be brought up being told that women need protecting and for men to look after them, because it's polite. If he views women as capable of looking after themselves, he would be being rude.

Hewantsto protect me and would rather if one of us gets injured by a car or something, that it was him rather than me.

And you never think the same of him? You would rather he got injured too.

Vashna · 19/07/2018 14:59

These things really don’t need to be a big deal, surely. It’s instinct, more than anything else. For instance, I tend to walk on the outside if the pavement when I’m with the kids, but I don’t give it much conscious thought. I presume that’s why DH would veer in that direction in the pavement. I think it’s the way people are brought up tbh. Even now, DH will pull a chair out for his mum at dinner because that’s what his dad did, I presume. Nothing wrong with it at all. Even my son at 15 gets it, as do most of his friends.

Shortstuff08 · 19/07/2018 15:13

It is not instinct to pull out a woman's chair.

It's a habit. And the habit is saying 'women need me to do this for them'.

They don't. They may choose to let him. But they don't need it. If you like it, crack on. Just don't expect all women to enjoy it or stroke his ego when he tries it.

Shortstuff08 · 19/07/2018 15:15

I tend to walk on the outside if the pavement when I’m with the kids

Can you not see a difference in the relationships? Your relationship with your dh is not the same as the one you have with your kids.

How can you not get that?

flowery · 19/07/2018 15:18

”You asked how you should approach it. I didn't tell you, that you should. Just answered your question.”

No. I said previously that doing anything about it would involve rejecting him. You then said “You don't have to make a big point of rejecting him. At all." So I asked for your suggestion of how, and, my apologies, assumed you thought I should do so. Thanks for the great idea of talking to him, that’s very helpful. But as I’m happy, he’s happy and you now apparently don’t think I should talk to him, that’s everyone happy so I’ll leave it!

”It makes no sense that a man would be brought up being told that women need protecting and for men to look after them, because it's polite”

No one said it particularly made objective sense. But as a man in his forties I don’t think he’s particularly unusual to have been raised that way.

”And you never think the same of him? You would rather he got injured too.”

I do wish you would stop the rather unhelpful habit you have of overinterpreting everything I say. It makes responding so much more time consuming.

No, funnily enough I would not rather he got injured. I’ve already explained the reasons I don’t make a big deal of trying to stop him.

Sirzy · 19/07/2018 15:19

Well I’m pleased my partner who is in his 40s has been raised to realise relationships are a partnership and not some sort of patronising protector roll!

I would be most offended if he felt I was unable to open the car door for myself!

Shortstuff08 · 19/07/2018 15:29

No one said it particularly made objective sense. But as a man in his forties I don’t think he’s particularly unusual to have been raised that way

My dad is 64. He was raised to kind and polite to everyone. And to not treat women as though they need a supervisor/assistant/bodyguard.

My Dp is 39. He is pretty much the same.

I do wish you would stop the rather unhelpful habit you have of overinterpreting everything I say. It makes responding so much more time consuming.

What that I have a different perspective? If you don't want to debate, don't. It's absolutely fine.

flowery · 19/07/2018 15:30

”Well I’m pleased my partner who is in his 40s has been raised to realise relationships are a partnership and not some sort of patronising protector roll!”

Yes, me too.

”I would be most offended if he felt I was unable to open the car door for myself!”

Is there any reason to think that if he opened the car door for you it would be because he thought you were unable to? What an odd thing to assume!

Sirzy · 19/07/2018 15:31

What other reason would there be to open a car door for someone?

Train101 · 19/07/2018 15:31

I hold doors open for anyone behind me and in front of me.
If someone needs help I offer it.
If someone is disabled, pregnant, old or looks unwell I offer my seat on the train.

But I do this regardless of sex.

In society we need to learn to be kind and helpful to everyone and to have good manners regardless of sex.

flowery · 19/07/2018 15:32

”What that I have a different perspective? If you don't want to debate, don't. It's absolutely fine.”

No, not that you have a different perspective, that you insist on making huge assumptions and projections based on things I say which then require me to correct you. See numerous examples of having to do this in my posts above.

flowery · 19/07/2018 15:33

”What other reason would there be to open a car door for someone?”

Have you not read the thread? Feel free to do so, that might enlighten you as to why some men do this.

Sirzy · 19/07/2018 15:34

I have not seen anything to suggest anything but doing it from a patronising POV to be honest! So again why does a perfectly capable woman NEED to have he car opened for her?

flowery · 19/07/2018 15:37

”Can you not see a difference in the relationships? Your relationship with your dh is not the same as the one you have with your kids.

How can you not get that?”

Ooh sorry there’s another example of projecting and assuming, missed that one. Funnily enough I am fully aware that my relationships with DH and the DC are different yes. Why assume I don’t? The fact that I think my DHs motives for walking on the outside of the pavement are probably similar to my motives for doing so with the DC doesn’t translate into me thinking the relationships are the same. Hmm

Good grief.

Vashna · 19/07/2018 15:38

Why would anyone claim to be offended by something that comes from a good place, ultimately? My DH would indeed say he feels protective to me actually, as well as to the kids. Is he supposed to deny that instinct because some women get in a flap about these things. You can’t tell him how he should feel because it is what it is, just as he can’t tell you how to feel.

flowery · 19/07/2018 15:38

”So again why does a perfectly capable woman NEED to have he car opened for her?”

I don’t know any capable women who NEED to have their car door opened for them so I can’t tell you.

Lookingforspace · 19/07/2018 15:46

But him opening the door for you is fine as long as you also do it for him. If you doing it for him would confuse him or make him raise his eyebrows then therein lies the problem. If you do it for each other as a reciprocal courtesy then of course it’s not a problem. The issue is if he does it for you simply because you’re a woman and he feels he should hold open doors for women. If he holds open doors for everyone then there’s no issue at all.

flowery · 19/07/2018 15:48

Weird to assume, as so many people are doing on this thread, that just because a tradition was originally born out of misogynistic, patriarchal norms, that men who follow those specific habits today must automatically have all the thoughts and attitudes that initially went with it. People are much more complex than that.

Yes my DH would offer me a seat etc, because he was brought up that way. But he is absolutely not patronising, sexist or misogynistic, doesn’t see me as lesser, doesn’t think I NEED protecting, or any of the other assumptions that have been made about him. If any of those things were true I absolutely would not have married him.

I have attempted here to explain why I think he does it. If people would like to assume there’s something more sinister behind it, do you know what? Knock yourselves out!

My own point of view is that it is outdated and unnecessary, and that everyone should be considerate of everyone regardless of sex. But if some of you think that can’t be true if I let my DH offer me a seat, then ok, think whatever you like!

Shortstuff08 · 19/07/2018 15:53

Ooh sorry there’s another example of projecting and assuming, missed that one. Funnily enough I am fully aware that my relationships with DH and the DC are different yes. Why assume I don’t? The fact that I think my DHs motives for walking on the outside of the pavement are probably similar to my motives for doing so with the DC doesn’t translate into me thinking the relationships are the same

Because that's the comparison you are making. You walk on the outside when with dc, so it's not weird when dh does it with you. So where is the comparison. You are in guardian role when with your kids. Your dh is not, your guardian.

What you mean, is that I am just disagreeing with you and you don't like I won't role over. Your dh thinking comes from a time when women where owned and society said they must be protected like little treasure.

flowery · 19/07/2018 15:57

I’m not remotely bothered you won’t “role” over and I’m fine with you disagreeing with me. I don’t need you to agree with my assessment of my DH, his motives and our relationship.

It’s just irritating when you assume when I say ABC I must in fact mean ABCDEFGH. Just gets a bit wearing!