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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think chivalry is dead?

426 replies

CrispyBanger · 18/07/2018 20:52

Got the train home today from London at rush hour. It was packed, not a spare seat to be had. At the front of the train there are always a few unreserved seats, including 3 sets of priority seating and 2 tables. I sat in a priority seat. Of the other priority seats, 3 were taken by men with a further 7 men in the table seats.

Obviously pregnant lady (with a baby on board badge for extra measure) got on and stood in the aisle as it was so packed. I looked around expecting someone i.e. a man to offer their seat but no one did. I stood up and she took my seat.

Now, obviously there's a slim chance that the other people in the priority seating had non-visible seating needs but it's unlikely they all did. Am I showing my age or is it no longer the done thing to offer a seat to the elderly/pregnant ladies etc?

Incidentally, when I stood in the aisle a man sat at the table offered me his seat Confused. So he didn't feel like he should offer it to a heavily pregnant lady but he did to a an obviously non pregnant lady?

OP posts:
Lookingforspace · 19/07/2018 16:09

Weird to assume, as so many people are doing on this thread, that just because a tradition was originally born out of misogynistic, patriarchal norms, that men who follow those specific habits today must automatically have all the thoughts and attitudes that initially went with it. People are much more complex than that.

So Flowery, I assume from that statement that as you know it’s silly and old fashioned you aren’t raising your sons to behave the same ways or judging your daughters’ Partners by the same yard stick?

Because to me it’s fine if that’s how you both want to be as it clearly works for you but if like some other posters on here you feel a man who lacks such ‘qualities’ is essentially less well mannered then that is a problem and one that perpetuates sexism and misogyny.

Vashna · 19/07/2018 16:09

For all the grandstanding on here, I bet if you all asked your DHs or DPs if they feel protective towards you, they would tell you they do. It’s not exactly a rare sentiment is it? Far more common than not, I would say. It has nothing to do with men feeling they are superior either.

Sirzy · 19/07/2018 16:10

Surely it’s pretty normal for partners to feel protective of each other?

crazycatgal · 19/07/2018 16:11

I'm sure my DP feels protective of me like I do of him. He doesn't run ahead to grab the door for me if he's not there first, whoever is first will hold the door open for the second person.

Lookingforspace · 19/07/2018 16:12

And for clarification, especially in light of the other raising a gentleman thread, the ‘qualities’ are categorically not the concept of manners but rather that a different set of manners should apply to the sexes.

IrmaFayLear · 19/07/2018 16:20

I think i’m at that awkward age when i’m all ready to haughtily decline an offer of a seat from a man on equality grounds (although actually I would be very polite) when I realise that i’m being offered a seat because of my age ...

Lookingforspace · 19/07/2018 16:28

But @Vashna, he’s protective of me as I am of him because we are lovers, best friends and spouses. He has never felt he needs to provide for me only that we need to provide for each other and our DC. He never feels that he should take the ins out or unblock the drain. We always take turns taking DCs to parties etc. He can French plait DD’s hair as well as me. We don’t hope she’ll meet a nice gentleman who’ll open doors for her and earn enough money to keep her. We hope she’ll meet a man who’ll respect her and treat her with love and kindness and we want exactly the same for our boys.

Lookingforspace · 19/07/2018 16:29

bins

flowery · 19/07/2018 16:31

"So Flowery, I assume from that statement that as you know it’s silly and old fashioned you aren’t raising your sons to behave the same ways or judging your daughters’ Partners by the same yard stick?"

We have two sons and you assume correctly. We are raising them to be considerate and courteous to everyone.

"Because to me it’s fine if that’s how you both want to be as it clearly works for you..."

It's not how we both (actively) want it to be, it's that I'm not sufficiently bothered by it to make a big deal of trying to change it. If I felt it was representative/indicative of deeper misogynistic or patronising attitudes on the part of my DH I would absolutely challenge it. But I'm confident that in his case it's not.

..but if like some other posters on here you feel a man who lacks such ‘qualities’ is essentially less well mannered then that is a problem and one that perpetuates sexism and misogyny.

Yes I see that, and I agree. As I've said above, I can't imagine any man I know, if we were both on a train and there were one seat available, sitting in it himself and not offering it to me. Rightly or wrongly. If I am brutally honest, if that happened, there would be a moment where it would 'jar' with me and a metaphorical eyebrow would go up very briefly. Then I would have a word with myself and the eyebrow would go straight back down again and all would be well!

Lookingforspace · 19/07/2018 16:34

Just to clarify, if one of my sons was gay and the other straight, I’d expect them both to show the same level of kindness, courtesy and respect to their partners. I wouldn’t expect the heterosexual one to hold open any more doors, hail any more taxis or disproportionately walk on the outside of the pavement any more than I’d expect from the homosexual one.

Vashna · 19/07/2018 16:50

Looking, that’s great for you because that’s the dynamic you’ve naturally fallen into in your particular case because of the people you are. But don’t assume that everyone would want your dynamic, or that it puts you on some kind of higher moral high ground. I’ve been with my DH since my mid-20s and this is how we are. I’m confident he doesn’t have any sinister intentions. I respect his attitude actually and to be honest, I would not expect any less. It does not make me a freak.

ilovesooty · 19/07/2018 16:58

I think that stuff about not going first into a room is just peculiar.
Why should I go on a date and expect a man to see me home or call me a taxi? I can plan, assess risk and use the phone as well as he can.

FrancinePefko42 · 19/07/2018 16:59

Vashna
He sees me as a woman - as distinct to a man. This is why he would open a car door for me, but he would not do that for a man
Hmm

Wait...a car door....not even the door of a room that you are both going to use one after the other? A car door?

So let me get this straight. When you're approaching the car, you stand and look at the door. He opens the door so that you can get in. He then walks round to his side of the car, opens that door and gets into the car.

When you've arrived. Does he get out first, walk all the way round to your side (while you're sitting watching inside) to open your door from the outside?

Why? He sees me as a woman - as distinct to a man

Vashna do you carry a glass vial of smelling salts in the sleeve of your elbow length white gloves just in case one day someone expects you to open the car door yourself. No doubt this would cause you to have a fit of the vapours.

Vashna · 19/07/2018 17:16

Don’t be daft Francine. Of course I get in the car by myself all the time Confused. It’s just if I’m with DH he’ll get the door for me generally. I think you’ll find most husbands would do this. Confused

Shortstuff08 · 19/07/2018 17:21

I’m not remotely bothered you won’t “role” over and I’m fine with you disagreeing with me.

Ah well done flowery you have outed me as dyslexic. Proud of yourself are you? You may want to note that passive aggressive correcting of my spelling isn't helpful and just makes you look like you can't discuss this like a grown up and would rather take a in hand knock at someone.

It’s just irritating when you assume when I say ABC I must in fact mean ABCDEFGH. Just gets a bit wearing!

You compared you doing things to protect your DC, to your dh doing them for you. So if you are going to say they are the same, let's follow that logic. But they aren't the same at all. And who protects your DH?
That's my point, the logic of comparing to your relationship with your children doesn't make sense. The logic of him, doing this for you because he loves, doesn't make sense. Because you would do it for each other.

He does it because you are a woman. It's that simple. It comes from mysognistic thinking. That's not to say your dh is total sexist twat. But these things he does, does come from sexist thinking.

And the earlier poster who says she would throw a strip and get an uber home if her husband decided to not follow this thinking, needs to grow up. When is it ok for grown adults to throw strips and stomp off?

Yes my Dp is protective of me. I am of him. But he wouldn't dream of not letting me handle my stuff. He knows if I need him, I have no problem telling him that. And vice versa.

Beaverhausen · 19/07/2018 17:26

Well I am raising my daughter that it does not make her weak when she allows a man to treat her with courtesy and respect. And to say thank you when a man opens a door or pulls out a chair for her.

Shortstuff08 · 19/07/2018 17:38

Well I am raising my daughter that it does not make her weak when she allows a man to treat her with courtesy and respect. And to say thank you when a man opens a door or pulls out a chair for her.

Most people do say thank you. I amraisimg my daughter to say thank you to people to. I have done fairly good job. She is a polite 14 year old, which I think is a bloody achievement.

The problem comes when she expects men to do it and has a strop if one doesn't. The problem is when men feel obliged to do it because that's what women need and are seen as rude if they don't.

JacquesHammer · 19/07/2018 17:39

Well I am raising my daughter that it does not make her weak when she allows a man to treat her with courtesy and respect. And to say thank you when a man opens a door or pulls out a chair for her

I’m raising my daughter to treat people with courtesy and respect, whatever their sex. And not to confuse some outdated custom with a decent man.

BertrandRussell · 19/07/2018 17:43

" And to say thank you when a man opens a door or pulls out a chair for her."
Oh for goodness sake-what do you think the rest of us are doing? Raising one of those mythical women who gave "the husband of a friend of a friend a mouthful when he held a door open for her"?

Kingkiller · 19/07/2018 17:59

I think you’ll find most husbands would do this.

Ummm... no I don't think they do actually. You're living in a time-warp.

BlitheringIdiots · 19/07/2018 18:03

CrispyBanger my son would get up but my husband wouldn't ......... I brought up my son not my husband. I'm teaching politeness. If I had a girl she too would have been taught to stand up.

Train101 · 19/07/2018 18:08

I wouldn't open a car door for my wife?
Why would I?
She is capable of doing so and tbh it's a bit patronising to do so almost like oh dear you can't possibly open a door if I'm here

ScreamingValenta · 19/07/2018 18:13

I definitely wouldn't want my husband to waste time opening the car door for me - he's enough of a faffer as it is; when I finally get him to the car I want to get going ASAP before he finds something else to faff about.

JacquesHammer · 19/07/2018 18:23

My bf doesn’t drive. I’d think he was absolutely bonkers if i’d driven us somewhere for him then to leap around and open my door Grin

Confusedbeetle · 19/07/2018 18:23

Common courtesy and consideration are not gender specific. We should all give a seat to someone who needs it more than us. The word chivalry is not needed