To feel sickened that this man is being referred to in this way (WARNING UPSETTING CONTENT)

[bigoldscaredycat]

This man raped a three month old baby boy to the point where the baby needed corrective surgery.

He is now in a women’s prison in Canada where he has beaten up a female inmate.

THIS is where self ID leads. Men like this being incarcerated with women and their crimes being counted as female.

torontosun.com/news/national/feds-deny-paying-for-convicted-pedophiles-implants

www.newwestrecord.ca/dangerous-offender-in-b-c-loses-appeal-for-day-or-full-parole-1.23279132

Go on, Mumsnet, delete me for deliberately misgendering a male baby rapist.

THIS.IS.A.MAN.

Perhaps this story will illustrate why feminists are so up in arms about self ID.

I would love to see even the staunchest anti-women transactivist tell me that this person is a woman and that they belong in a women’s prison.

...my main issue is that our current arguments "They're not women" being the main one are getting labelled transphobic and seen to have no validity as a result.

But our argument is that men aren't women. As it's 'transphobic' to make factual statements - human beings can't change sex, for instance - I place no value on accusations of transphobia, Neededastealthname.

Plus the more widely the more bonkers TRA claims are covered by news media, the more people who are not involved in xidentity politics have lightbulb moments and start to examine the ideology more critically.

Allowing our ideological opponents to dictate the language we use to define ourselves is madness. We're not 'cis' or 'not men', and transwomen are male.

Just because people hurl the word transphobic around as a means of silencing discussion does not mean that we should stop talking about the core issues.

Quite the reverse.

Stating that men cannot become women is scientific fact.

If scientific fact is viewed by certain people as "transphobic" and "has no credibility" then at least stop and think about why that is.

Hanging, no I am referring to them not being real women, it's that argument that is so easy to write off as transphobic.

Bowlof, yes it is utter bollocks but Mumsnet is much more predominant in media that any of the other sights you mentioned, it's at the forefront of the trans argument and it has been written off as transphobic.

Men (with or without a penis) should not be allowed in female spaces because they are physically stronger than women and more likely to commit a sex act

Well, yes. Happy to be a part of furthering your education.

I will never stop saying that they aren't women. That they are male. It is the heart of the matter. We cannot justify excluding them without acknowledging this truth.

So you think that what we need to do is deny reality in order not to be seen as transphobic, is that it?

Do you foresee any problems with that approach?

Hanging, no I am referring to them not being real women, it's that argument that is so easy to write off as transphobic.

8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

Transwomen are not 'real women'. They are not any kind of woman because they are men. The word 'woman' has meaning, and I am not ok with that being eroded to suit some men.

Facts are 'transphobic'. Meh.

You can be a second wave feminist even if you were a child at the time of the movement. Fourth wave feminists are unwilling to acknowledge that previous feminists allied themselves to transexuals.

Eh?

it's at the forefront of the trans argument and it has been written off as transphobic.

My argument to that would be

1. It isn’t.
2. We are dealing with a small vocal group of activists who don’t particularly even represent all transpeople (most of whom I’m sure just want a quiet life.) these people will call anything transphobic unless it totally capitulates and validates them.

So frankly, we could be sat here discussing something g like breastfeeding or endometriosis and that would attract accusations of transphobia.

Balls to that. MN isn’t transphobic. It’s on the front line for sure and it’s asking some tough questions. Those questions need to be asked.

If all anyone has to throw back at us is ‘transphobia’ then tough. If they can bring a logically consistent argument that holds up medically, scientifically and preserves women’s rights and child safety then I’m all ears. And so are most people on here.

I haven’t heard such an argument yet

Popchyk, but it does silence discussion. Are feminists making any headway with regaining their rights? Does anybody even care about a bunch of 'transphobics' rights?

Yes it's a scientific fact but human rights trump facts, and right now trans rights are seen as more important than women's, arguing the facts should be the way forward but our very screwed up world doesn't appear to work like that.

Popchyk, no not at all, what I think is that we need a different approach.

You can do what you want. I will do what I see fit. And that doesn't include undermining women's rights by pretending biological sex doesn't exist.

Popchyk, no not at all, what I think is that we need a different approach.

What are you suggesting? (Geunie question not being goady!)

it's that argument that is so easy to write off as transphobic

Replace transphobic with scientifically correct.

We are dealing with a small vocal group of activists who don’t particularly even represent all transpeople (most of whom I’m sure just want a quiet life.) these people will call anything transphobic unless it totally capitulates and validates them.

This. We won't win if we concede to the misogynistic agenda of bullying narcissists. And we'll find it very hard to get back what we lose.

@bigoldscaredycat if you believed what you were saying, truly believed it and believed it was the truth and obvious to the rest of us then you wouldn't need to drag articles onto MN to prove it. I know that trans women are women and I know trans men are men. I don't have to keep posting articles about Jazz Jennings and other brave trans people who have opened up about their lives with us.
But you trans exclusionary 'feminists' have to keep on and on, posting more and more links, starting more and more posts in the desperate hope that you can convince yourself and others. When you know that it isn't. When you know you aren't going to be raped in a changing room or in a toilet, when you know that if one of your children came to you and said they were trans that you'd support them all the way.

What different approach are you suggesting, Needs?

If any man who claims to be a woman is, according to you, a "real woman", then on what basis could that "real woman" be excluded from female spaces?

Genuine question.

People born intersex is not a topic that anyone is willing to discuss - perhaps because it does not fit into binary terms.

Or because intsersex is nothing to do with trans matters of course.

This man is vile, and should never be unleashed on the public again. Nor should ha be in a female psychiatric ward. He is male. Regardless of whatever surgeries he has had. It is not the job of women to keep various kinds of men safe. Small men and disabled men are at huge risk in the mens estate, does this mean they should also be in the female one?

Needasleathname - the problem is that any approach - that veers from "anyone who identifies as a woman, is a woman, and should be treated exactly the same as a woman - ie. be housed in women's prisons" - is shouted down as transphobic.

It should be clear to anybody that the example in the OP - of a male rapist and killer - should not be treated as a woman, and should not be in a women's jail.

So we see the end-result of the "transwomen are women" mantra. It ends with male rapists (some still with penises, although I know that's not the case in this OP - but some have not had SRS, and are still considered women by the TAs) housed in women's prisons with other vulnerable women.

See also - Martin Ponting.

I know that trans women are women and I know trans men are men.

You don't. You have a faith based belief that they are. It is like a religious creed.

Bowlof, yes it is utter bollocks but Mumsnet is much more predominant in media that any of the other sights you mentioned, it's at the forefront of the trans argument and it has been written off as transphobic.

It's predominant in media, but it's also been written off?

It hasn't been written off. Justine Roberts has been asked to meet with Penny Mordaunt.

Man Friday is been invited all over the place on radio and TV.

The government are now, currently, consulting women.

Giving the lie to Maria Miller's assertion that the only people objecting were women 'purporting to be feminists'.

The consultation is the sound of those words being eaten.

Journalists lurk on here all the time, and then write articles putting our viewpoint across.

Transactivists are waging a massive war on this site in an effort to stop us from talking.

Because we are effective.

Every single time they open their mouths, or start a campaign, they expose their motives and more people have a lightbulb moment.

The only thing they can do is say that mumsnet is transphobic.

They have nothing else. They have nothing in their arsenal. No argument.

And it's a useless tactic. It might influence a few people who aren't interested in critical thinking. But there aren't very many more who are. And the tide is turning.

Quite evidently.

When you know you aren't going to be raped in a changing room or in a toilet, when you know that if one of your children came to you and said they were trans that you'd support them all the way.

This is the cognitive dissonance.

Rapists have been sent to females prisons and women have been sexually assaulted as a result. It's happened.

There are loads of mothers of trans children who post on here. Very grateful for the gender critical position.

It's happened.

Bowl, yes it is scientifically correct I wholeheartedly agree BUT it's being twisted into transphobic. It is not in any way whatsoever transphobic, it's a fact but that's not how it is being portrayed.

Hanging, that's a difficult question but I guess I made my bed so... I wouldn't use the fact that they are not scientifically women at all, if I were arguing the subject I'd steer clear of it even though it would pain me to do so because it should be enough but sadly it's not. I would probably highlight the dangers of allowing such free movement of trans women in what is supposed to be female only environment. I would lay the blame of incidents such as the one in this thread at the feet of the trans community, they have their rights and should now be held accountable for incidents like this that have occurred as a result, a rapist being allowed into a female prison to attack other inmates.

Stop worrying about things being seen as transphobic, there isn't a definition and its meaningless. Just talk about the things you need to talk about.

zeeboo

Do you believe humans can change sex?