To feel sickened that this man is being referred to in this way (WARNING UPSETTING CONTENT)

[bigoldscaredycat]

This man raped a three month old baby boy to the point where the baby needed corrective surgery.

He is now in a women’s prison in Canada where he has beaten up a female inmate.

THIS is where self ID leads. Men like this being incarcerated with women and their crimes being counted as female.

torontosun.com/news/national/feds-deny-paying-for-convicted-pedophiles-implants

www.newwestrecord.ca/dangerous-offender-in-b-c-loses-appeal-for-day-or-full-parole-1.23279132

Go on, Mumsnet, delete me for deliberately misgendering a male baby rapist.

THIS.IS.A.MAN.

Perhaps this story will illustrate why feminists are so up in arms about self ID.

I would love to see even the staunchest anti-women transactivist tell me that this person is a woman and that they belong in a women’s prison.

Pretty sure that (possibly within the lifetime of people growing up now) this will be seen as a time of madness and medica youl abuses. Wrong side of history my arse.
.
Well said, UneMoonit. I've studied medical history and medicine is just as vulnerable to fashions as other fields. It's never been pure science, though evidence based medicine is becoming the mainstream.

Not in this area, though. The dosing of underage kids with strong dangerous drugs which are being used off label is a massive scandal just waiting to happen. Then there's brutal surgery being performed on people with complex MH issues...

Children aren’t being allowed to go through puberty and will soon find themselves castrated, unable to experience sexual enjoyment and living in a world of people who are seeking fulfilment and love with someone they can shag (basically)

Young lesbians are being brutalised and left permanently damaged by this shit before they’ve left school. The backlash from the current generation of 12-18 year olds is going to be huge.

Is it possible for someone to explain how murdering toddlers and raping babies with your penis indicates an innate internal sense of identity of being a woman?

The can’t, but don’t you dare disagree because you will then be as bad as the toddler-murdering-baby-raping-lady-brain haver, apparently

If your argument (about transsexuals) is in line with Nazis and other fascists - you're on the wrong side. If you lie with dogs, you're gonna get fleas.

That’s it, I’m invoking Godwin’s Law on you.
Wrong side of history indeed, nice attempt at a threat. Oooooh look at me, I’m shaking in my Doc Martens

Just in case you’re unclear Godwin’s Law

Prison, facility...this criminal- despite being a teenager- committed heinous crimes and changed lives forever. There is no rehabilitation from that nor should their be.

If this rapist ever got out, the public-children and infants especially, the most vulnerable- would be in extreme danger. In cases like this i am very pro the death penalty.

Since thats not an option, isolation to protect everyone, complete segregation from all inmates (except guards who attend) and life long incarceration is the way to go. It's not very just for those little ones and their families though.

Thanks for the link.

Invoking is an interesting verb to use there though!

I see your Godwin's Law and raise you Chesterton's Fence.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chesterton%27s_fence

Invoking is an interesting verb to use there though!

Please explain. Please also explain how refusing to accept that a baby raping toddler murderer who was born male is now woman enough to be held in a female psychiatric hospital and how objecting to this makes me akin to the Nazis and other fascists

I see your Godwin's Law and raise you Chesterton's Fence.

Explain how this applies here please

Here's the definition of invoke, Storm.

verb: invoke
gerund or present participle: invoking

1. Call on (a deity or spirit) in prayer, as a witness, or for inspiration.

synonyms: pray to, call on, appeal to, plead with, supplicate, entreat, solicit, beseech, beg, implore, importune, petition; More

2. cite or appeal to (someone or something) as an authority for an action or in support of an argument.

Invoke is being used in the second sense by ChiefClerkDrumknott. Hence her addition of a link defining Godwin's law. I'm surprised anyone who's engaged in online debate hasn't heard of it.

@Storminamug

Im still confused as to how person who raped a 3 month old with their penis is actually a woman? Can you explain? I honestly. don't get it.

MrsPear damaging mindset to have, men ( and women ) can be raped by biological women. You can be raped without the rapist having a penis
Not in the UK you can't

I wish people wouldn't get bogged down in semantics regarding rape or legal definitions of rape. Rape is a word outside of its legal definition which has been expanding for a long time (thank fuck). Three decades ago your husband couldn't rape you. I know no one on the feminism board would tell a 50 year old woman that was raped by her husband in 1989 that it wasn't "real rape". Or that someone from another country where the word would be rape, that they weren't really raped under English law.

It isn't necessary to prove our point and sounds like a petty legal gotcha. I find it quite offensive. If someone is raped with a bottle for example it is still rape, whether it meets a legal definition, I don't give shit. Yes women can rape people. We don't need to act like the only reason it is not possible is due to semantics.

What is important, is not whether it is possible, but the fact that it is so vanishingly rare that it is almost unheard of

Amal, are you being intentionally dense? I have used the term transphobic to highlight that genuine concerns are being buried by it, I have said so many bloody times now that my main issue is that our current arguments "They're not women" being the main one are getting labelled transphobic and seen to have no validity as a result.

I think you have spotted the problem - I am not really engaged in online debate.

Although I have learnt a lot.

Men (with or without a penis) should not be allowed in female spaces because they are physically stronger than women and more likely to commit a sex act. Men, without a penis, should be imprisoned with men with penises irrespective of crime. Women who have a surgically constructed penis are allowed in female spaces.

People born intersex is not a topic that anyone is willing to discuss - perhaps because it does not fit into binary terms.

You can be a second wave feminist even if you were a child at the time of the movement. Fourth wave feminists are unwilling to acknowledge that previous feminists allied themselves to transexuals.

You can choose sexual orientation but not gender.

This latest wave of radical feminism happens on the forum pages of mumsnet.

Amal, are you being intentionally dense

Are you? Can you debate without insulting?

People born intersex is not a topic that anyone is willing to discuss - perhaps because it does not fit into binary terms.

No, its because intersex has absolutely nothing to do with transgenderism, and I believe there are intersex organisations who have requested that intersex people are kept out the debate, rather than being used as a 'gotcha' for proving something about the trans agenda.

Humans are classified as a bipedal species, meaning that they walk on two legs. The fact that occasionally people are born with one leg or no legs does not change this classification or prove that humans are not bipedal.

The fact that occasionally people are born intersex does not in any way prove that sex in humans is not binary. It is.

I will try to make my point painfully clear.

Our (those opposed to trans women being in women's prisons) arguments are being written off as transphobic, saying they are not real women is only hindering the cause, so I get frustrated when I see people so caught up in the "They're not real" argument, Mumsnet has already been labelled "The most transphobic place on the Internet". People seen as transphobic can't illicit change and arguing that "They're not real" will get you labelled as one regardless of your true intentions.

"They're not real" = labelled transphobic = no credibility = no change, that is my view as condensed down as I can make it!

See that's the problem Amal, I'm not here to debate, I'm here so share concerns whilst constantly trying not to get dragged into a debate.

People born intersex is not a topic that anyone is willing to discuss - perhaps because it does not fit into binary terms.

How? Intersex people are not some kind of halfway house you know. Everyone with a disorder of sexual development can be sorted into male or female.

People with disorders of sexual development (DSDs) don’t tell us anything about being transgender. They’re being used by certain vocal groups as a kind of ‘gotcha’ when they are no such thing.

Human sex is Male or female.

storm

Do you believe humans can change sex ?

Okay needed, how would you word it? As we're all feministing wrong, in your opinion.

Look, if this group make up such a tiny infinitesimally small percentage of the population, do you think it's maybe just a bit strange we keep having to discuss them in the prison population? For sex crimes?

Let's name any another equally sized portion of the "female" population and then ask how often then end up in prison for sexual assault.

People seen as transphobic can't illicit change and arguing that "They're not real" will get you labelled as one regardless of your true intentions.

Is this like the 'transphobes are denying out right to exist' thing? No one is saying trans people don't exist, or that they are 'not real'. Of course they exist, you can see them with your own eyes.

People are saying that a man can never be a woman. Which is an objective and immutable truth. It's literally impossible. Anything which strays from this is a belief, an ideology, like believing in God. And it's fine to have that belief. Until that belief starts to effect other people, like women and children. As is the case in the case we are currently discussing. A violent man should not be in a woman's prison.

INtersex people aren't being discussed because it is an unrelated medical condition, not a mental health issue. No one has any issue with a person raised female due to outwardly female genitalia being in a female prison. WHy would we?

Mumsnet has already been labelled "The most transphobic place on the Internet"

The main problem with that is that it’s utter bollocks. MN quite rightly mods any post they find that contains hateful speech. Go into a forum like reddit or kiwi farms and you’ll see some serious transphobia. If MN is the most anythingophobic place on the Internet then I’m a bowl of petunias. *

The general thrust of discussion here is the safety and rights of women and children. And the reason MN is targeted is because this is a predominantly female site talking about issues that predominantly affect women and children.

The reason this kind of hyperbole is pushed is because of you repeat something enough people believe it. The thing is, nobody with two duty neurons to spark off each other thinks of MN as a bastion of evil.

• possibly loo brushes, but there are warring factions over that...

Beyond, there is currently a dangerous child raping trans woman in a female prison, is that not reason enough to start thinking of other solutions and methods?