To be disgusted by this?

[SerenDippitty]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-44858107

What if it had been another mother with a prank occupying the wheelchair space? Would she have felt entitled to ask her to move?

Xenia - the mother with the injury booked the seat for the accessible space. The seat and the accessible space are for people with disabilities. The mother does not have a disability, she has a broken arm. It does not have an impact on her ability to walk or travel. A broken arm does not trump disability, whether she (wrongly) booked the seat or not. She should never have booked the seat in the first place.

(I agree that pranks never trump wheelchairs/scooters. But I wonder if that’s where problems arouse, especially as there was a lot of luggage in the space.)

*prams

Okay, gosh it sounds really complicated.... I like trains and prefer them to very long drives but they can lead to a lot of complications. i stopped using the quiet coach due to the rows in there - in my view it means total silence, no talking at all of any kind; not something everyone else seems to agree on nor the signs actually which just talk about no mobiles and being as quiet as you can be rather than "no talking at all" - the latter being what most of us want.

Literally the only place for the scooter was between carriages blocking exits/entrance to the train which was where she ended up.

Luggage is forever put in these spaces because train companies don't provide enough room for luggage and assume everyone's luggage will fit above their head and everyone can lift luggage above their head (I can't physically do this), I always tried to get mine between seats but that too is usually full.

Even if someone does offer to help, what happens if they get off before the person needing help? You can't assume others will help instead.

Yeah, public transport is not accessible.

I have issues with my back and am in a lot of pain which isn’t obvious from looking at me. Last time I was on a train a lady pulled down her very heavy luggage and as she did it instructed me to catch one side. I did because if I hadn’t it would have landed on my head but it makes me mad to think about it!

I hope this starts more of a conversation though, the U.K. is awful for accessibility.

I hope this starts more of a conversation though, the U.K. is awful for accessibility.

And getting worse, not better.

Absolutely.

I, like many of you clearly don't, had no idea what it was like to be disabled until cancer made me so 18 months ago. Now I'm a wheelchair user/can only walk a few steps with a stick. I'm in pain constantly.

From people who don't respect blue badge spaces because they're 'just popping in for 5 minutes' and are too lazy to park further away to people who park over dropped kerbs. Dropped kerbs that have such a high lip a manual wheelchair won't go up them (this happens ALL the time) and I have to get out and walk up the kerb while my companion pushes my chair. Gravelled surfaces that look pretty but are impossible to wheel over. Bumpy surfaces - ditto, my husband accidentally tipped me out of my chair recently due to the wheels unexpectedly catching on one of these, I was suddenly on my hands & knees in the road. Shops that have rails crammed so tightly you can't get a wheelchair in. Shops with high steps at the entrance (loads of these in my town). Basically I can't go out independently any more and shopping other than in supermarkets is impossible.

Maybe the 'there must be more to it' brigade and the 'oh so you CAN walk/transfer to a chair - faker' accusers should go out in a wheelchair/scooter for a day and see just how difficult it actually is.

You have NO clue. Neither did I until it happened to me and now this is my life. There but for the grace of God go you, and if it happens I hope people have a better attitude towards you than the ignorance you are currently displaying.

Storm

storm sadly this is the case for a lot of people. It shouldn't be, but there's no room for education about being disabled in a country where disabilities are considered by the government to be a lifestyle choice which, as my ex MP put it, can be overcome with education and a bit of effort.

Did anyone see the last leg last night and the furore on twitter that followed.

five years old but still very relevant.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/03/disabled-people-have-never-had-it-so-bad

five years old but still very relevant

No, years old and more relevant.

Storm

There is quite a lot to this story including booked seats and luggage in the wheelchair area. This doesn’t excuse the guard at all, but it’s not quite as clear cut as initially reported. That isn’t being disablest, it’s a fair assessment of the situation.

I do know what it’s like to be disabled.

There's not one thing in those other facts that excuses a disabled person, who has placed her scooter in a legitimate spot for such a vehicle, being ordered to physically dismantle it so that a oram (which can easily fold) can be placed there instead. Then publicly humiliated over a tannoy system for refusal.

What extenuating circumstance justified the way she was treated there? I fail to see any.

I’ve said 3 or 4 times that nothing excuses the guards behaviour. The tannoy announcements were disgusting.

Then publicly humiliated over a tannoy system for refusal.

Technically, the tannoy announcements and threats to get the transport police involved were because the lady with the scooter and her partner were filming the guard and saying that they would put it all over the internet, which is a bit more understandable. I was very shocked when I first read the news and thought the guard was threatening to call the police because she would not dismantle the scooter, but less surprised when I saw the videos, although still think he should not have identified her in the announcements.

Ultimately though I think that the lady with the pram should have folded it up, possibly with the help from the train guard, and the lady with the scooter should have been allowed to remain. I can understand the pram lady's frustration if it's true that she had been allowed to reserve the space, and it's apparent that the lady with the scooter did not attempt to make a reservation and was also sat in the pram lady's seat, but the space is intended for disabled people.

The facts are weird and complicated though, especially as the pram lady said that she couldn't hold the baby but was then filmed (albeit briefly) doing so. And pram lady's partner had apparently injured his wrist too?

If the woman was using a seat and her scooter was in the wheelchair space it doesn't change a thing!

Where is she meant to put her scooter? They don't simply just fold up like a pushchair.

The woman has dwarfism. Can you imagine how difficult it might be to dismantle something like a mobility scooter when your limbs are maybe half the length of everyone else's?

I use a wheelchair full time and I often have to get out of my chair and sit on something else because my skeleton is shaped differently and it would cause a lot of pain to sit in something that isn't designed to be sat in for long periods of time.

If the mother with the pushchair specifically asked for the scooter to be moved then she is just as much in the wrong, but the conductor should be sacked immediately. He has no business working with the public.

Also, those who think there must be more to it are very naive to say the least.

I can tell you wholeheartedly, as a physically disabled woman that this kind of thing happens allllllll the time in all sorts of places.

If you think this sort of thing couldn't possibly be as shocking as it seems then you are sadly mistaken.

But pepper, there is more to it than initial reports.

I know people are atrocious on public transport, i know how difficult it is. But there are a few wee details which make the lady with the baby seem a little less unreasonable.

Of course the wheelchair/scooter trumps a pram ever single time. Of course. I’m not disagreeing with that at all. But it isn’t wrong to look at a situation and see that there’s a wee bit more than reported.

Indeed there is, but nothing that changes how discriminatory this was. It doesn't matter if pram lady has a broken arm, that is not covered by the DDA. Tanyalee's condition is. She qualifies. Entitled pram lady does not. That's all there is to it. The wrinkles in the story change nothing and do not make this excusable or somehow ambiguous.

I also imagine the police would give short shrift to anyone who halts a train and calls them because boo-hoo this passenger is presenting no threat at all but is annoying me.

@Flaminghaggis feel free to enlighten me.
I can't think of a single situation where this could be acceptable.

Is this the story?

Tanya uses her scooter to get on train, with partner.

Tanya's scooter was parked disabled person's vehicle space.
Tanya sits in the seat allocated for disabled person with vehicle in disabled person space (no one else may use).

Women with pram gets on train.
Pram woman reserved Tanya's exact seat how?
Unclear why no one else gave up their seats for either woman .
Pram woman cannot fold down her pram.
Pram cannot safely go anywhere but in space where scooter is.
Why pram was allowed on train I do not know. , maybe guard didn't see them in time to prevent boarding.

No one else offers to fold down the pram ( ).
No one offers to (or can) fold down the disability scooter.

Guard asks Tanya to move scooter (I dunno where or why that would help ).
Outraged Tanya & partner threaten guard with internet shaming.
Guard is pissed off in return & announces over tannoy why train is delayed.
Outraged Tanya & partner post Internet video as promised.

I bet that still isn't whole story.

For the hundredth time I’m not saying it’s acceptable. It should categorically not have happened for all sorts of reasons. But the lady with the pram has been demonised in all of this, and I do wonder where she fits into it all.