Aibu or is school, regarding discipline?

[Imustbemad00]

Would like any information anyone can give me regarding secondary schools and discipline procedures.
My child’s secondary school is strict. I knew it was strict, partly why I chose it. However, in reality, it is causing so many problems. My child has changed so much since starting there, unhappy, suffering with mental health and has developed a bad attitude problem and I will admit is being quite naughty at school and at home. Im worried.

This brings me on to the school rules and discipline. The school penalises children for looking out of a window, or anything viewed as a drop in concentration or messing around. Even dropping a pen. They have to move through the corridors in silence and not make eye contact with anyone and can’t even mess about at break time. They have to sit and chat and be sensible. It’s like they can not have personalities.

The sanctions for bad behaviour are extreme. My child has spent a lot of time in isolation, which means out of lessons. Not learning. Not talking to another person all day. Not great for a child already struggling with mental health.

The school also give them double detentions, meaning my child is was in school for 9 hours and 45mins today without talking to another child or being in any lessons, arriving home at 6.30pm.

I try to work with them as I know my child’s behaviour is the cause of punishments, but honestly feel they are way over the top and their approach is making things worse. They say that those are their policies and that is that.

I’m thinking of moving schools but worry my child’s behaviour could worsen if boundriers were relaxed. But equally they could flourish if not so unhappy and stressed.

So Aibu to think the schools policies are over the top? Is it normal?

I would say, as a teacher, that schools are like any work place- there will be one to suit you but no single one will suit everybody.

If this school isn’t working for your son then move him. It is no slight on the school or your son. They just aren’t suited to each other.

It was lunch time, he was outside with his friends -

Yes he knows the rules, but sometimes we slip up - he's not in the army

Well right now it's not working for your DC so what do you have to lose by moving them?

Not all discipline strategies work for all children. Some children with mild behaviour issues need a more flexible approach. One that adapts (for example) to different chidlren's ability to concentrate and demands that they all do their best, rather than insisting that all children behave as if they have perfect concentration all the time and punishing those who don't.

I have no interest in whether the school's discipline policies are right or wrong in general, for most children, for different children, whatever. They may work for a lot of children, they may help some children with behaviour problems, they may make for a quiet focussed atmosphere in the class which helps many children. But they are not working for your child. It doesn't even matter if your DC is lying about how bad their behaviour is and why they are being put into isolation - all you need to know is that under this regime it is getting worse, not better. Sounds very much like it's time to find an alternative.

I would try a move, and if that doesn't help I'd be looking for assessments in case the messing about etc is a symptom of an underlying problem. Generally if a behaviour problem persists in multiple environments it's a symptom of something.

And right now, how does the HT propose to make things better for your DC at this school? Has the school responded to the issues that mean he is seeing CAMHS?

a teacher who’s told them they will end up going to a rubbish school and end up a teenage parent with no job prospects.

OK, now I would be seeing a red mist. And my child would be out of there as soon as I could arrange it. Evil bastards. That's how people stay in abusive relationships - their abuser convinces them there is nowhere else they can go, that everyone else will treat them even worse, that they are a failure and will only failure worse with anyone else, that they don't deserve to be treated kindly. You and your DC are being gaslighted. Of course there are other schools and how would it be worse than what is already happening to your DC. Look for somewhere with good pastoral care because if your DC has MH issues (or developmental issues or whatever else CAMHS track down) they will need support in school too.

@yawning801

I don't see why sensory deprivation can't be used as one aspect of a system of punishments in a school. Sometimes a short, sharp shock is all it takes to set DC on a different path.

How do I know her 'didn't hear'

I live with him! Try calling him for dinner when he's engrossed in something?

SunShades so you think it's ok to put a child into 9-10 hours of isolation for 2 days running as a short, sharp shock... I hope to God you are not a teacher.

that school sounds like a prison. I would find somewhere more relaxed. That honestly sounds awful. Punishment for looking out of the window or dropping a pen?? do you even need to ask?

Not allowed to make eye contact in corridors or muck around at breaktime WTAF?

@pointythings

Not a teacher but I have a DD and DS. I have no issue with them being punished by a method of the school's choosing if they break the rules. They know the rules they have to follow, so any punishment they receive is down to them(and both know they'll be punished further at home).

Why wasn't his shirt tucked in? It's his responsibility to know the uniform rules and ensure he complies with them. He'd have got an instant after school detention at DS's school with no warning.

Surely its the nature of shirts that they sometimes become untucked. Especially for kids who are active at break, as they should be. Only way to avoid is to stitch them to there pants!

Great, so you do double punishment as well... Wow. Just wow.

FWIW I have two DDs, age 15 and 17. Fallible human beings just like everyone else. Behave well at their strict-but-sensible school. When they screw up at school, it stays at school. When they screw up at home, it stays at home. Amazingly enough they are high-achieving, well-behaved, polite young people.

I don't see why sensory deprivation can't be used as one aspect of a system of punishments in a school. Sometimes a short, sharp shock is all it takes to set DC on a different path.

The key word in your response is short. Not for long stretches of time. Not for being put in double detentions. Not for 9 hours and 45 minutes. That sounds like something out of the 1960s, or earlier.

@yawning801

10 hours is not a long period of time.

We know as a society that pure punishment rarely changes behaviour long term so why do we think a school that works on this model will help shape successful, well rounded adults?

Had the op said there are these strict rules and when they are broken or ignored punishment is about learning, so looking at why as a society we need to do x or what happens if everyone does y but op states that severe punishment is used for small issues.

Sensory deprovation for 2 days? Wtaf! People think this is acceptable in this day? Really, we know that senaory deprovation can be used as torture so why is it ok to use on a child?
Far better behaviour management methods including dealing with the root cause, helping children to have a sense of community they work towards together, allowing all children to achieve sucess, lots of physical movement for growing minds and bodies. Nurture rooms, small groups, emotional regulation, understanding staff who really care about the kids they work with and community links.

I am horrified reading this post and responses. So glad i work where i do this is the polar opposite to our approach, which whilst not perfect is not cruel.

There are only twenty-four hours in a day, SunShades. Imagine being stuck in the same room, surrounded by the same coloured walls, for ten hours. That's longer than the average adult is meant to sleep at night! I actually laughed when I read that response.

Why wasn't his shirt tucked in? It's his responsibility to know the uniform rules and ensure he complies with them. He'd have got an instant after school detention at DS's school with no warning.

For not having his shirt tucked in. That's appalling.

I think that these super-strict schools work well for a minority of children. For others, it's like prison, and they either comply, with a cost to their mental health and self-esteem, or they quite naturally rebel, the way most reasonable people would do in that situation where the default assumption of those in charge is that you're naturally bad and need to be punished, and you have no choice but to be there.

(Yes, there are a few jobs with very exacting uniform codes and restrictions on movement/other perfectly ordinary behaviour, but adults choose to take those jobs and can leave and find something else if the environment is completely wrong for them. Children don't have that choice.)

One more thing, OP. How soon after the school opened did the Ofsted take place? If the school was fairly new, there wouldn't have been much to inspect. There also wouldn't have been much time to solicit feedback from parents so any dissatisfaction would only come to light later.

I just find the assumption that children need this kind of structure very disturbing. It smacks of a culture that actively hates children and young people.

This thread has been a real eye opener for me in what to look for when DD is going to secondary school. Straight detention for an untucked shirt? What on earth does that achieve?! DD would massively struggle in isolation for 10 hours and it would negatively impact on her behaviour going forward rather than improve it. The previous comment that the school is being selective on the basis of ability to conform appears very true. I would have been fine there. DD would fail.

I think 10 hour straight isolation would be unheard of - it would be 9-7 for a start!! I can't see many staff wanting to stay till 7 to supervise students who hadn't followed the rules. I know every school will do it differently but I school for example isolates from 9-3.

I wouldn't let this conversation cloud your judgement of your own child's school, their arrangements will be completely different again! And hopefully your child will simply follow the school rules, as by far the majority if students do so will avoid sanctions !

Why are we talking about sensory deprivation? It's a classroom, not a darkened cell or a floatation tank.

The rudeness is a new development and is for answering back and questioning authority.

Then the current isolations are deserved, aren't they?

Detention for shirt not tucked in?
My DH would never have been out of detention. He's 6 ft 4 with a long back. Unless he buys special extra long shirts he's always got them coming untucked!

Why are we talking about sensory deprivation?
Because it suits people who are outraged to paint a picture of some sort of horrifying dungeon aimed at destorying children's souls.
It's been the same when a certain school in London is discussed. Suddenly the emotive language creeps out because there couldn't possibly be any merit in any approach one doesn't agree with (Disclaimer - I'm not a massive fan of everything in their approach).

Schools having a classroom with individual deaks where disruptive students have to (shock horror) work in silence under the supervision of a member of staff (who they can ask questions to) after they've disrupted other children's learning or been rude to staff doesn't get the same shock factor.

@MaisyPops yes this !!!

I get the impression that some non- teaching PPs have the impression that isolation is akin to solitary confinement! With a slop bucket in one corner and a bowl of gruel posted through once a day! It is only a room, where students are expected to work in silence and in our school it's isolation is now actually called 'inclusion' as it's used as an alternative to fixed term exclusion. The day in 'inclusion' also includes some time working 1-2-1 with a mentor reflecting on the incident.

SunShades

Your post is ridiculous. You're basically saying that any punishment the school hands down (however over the top) for any rule the school has decided to implant (even if it is unhealthy or impossible for some kids to obey) would be fine with you. If that's the case I genuinely hope you're never in a situation where you need to advocate for your children.