Aibu or is school, regarding discipline?

[Imustbemad00]

Would like any information anyone can give me regarding secondary schools and discipline procedures.
My child’s secondary school is strict. I knew it was strict, partly why I chose it. However, in reality, it is causing so many problems. My child has changed so much since starting there, unhappy, suffering with mental health and has developed a bad attitude problem and I will admit is being quite naughty at school and at home. Im worried.

This brings me on to the school rules and discipline. The school penalises children for looking out of a window, or anything viewed as a drop in concentration or messing around. Even dropping a pen. They have to move through the corridors in silence and not make eye contact with anyone and can’t even mess about at break time. They have to sit and chat and be sensible. It’s like they can not have personalities.

The sanctions for bad behaviour are extreme. My child has spent a lot of time in isolation, which means out of lessons. Not learning. Not talking to another person all day. Not great for a child already struggling with mental health.

The school also give them double detentions, meaning my child is was in school for 9 hours and 45mins today without talking to another child or being in any lessons, arriving home at 6.30pm.

I try to work with them as I know my child’s behaviour is the cause of punishments, but honestly feel they are way over the top and their approach is making things worse. They say that those are their policies and that is that.

I’m thinking of moving schools but worry my child’s behaviour could worsen if boundriers were relaxed. But equally they could flourish if not so unhappy and stressed.

So Aibu to think the schools policies are over the top? Is it normal?

I've said it once already, it's really nothing to do with me if I agree to these policies or not. I didn't sign a peice of paper saying that I did!

Perhaps that visual wasn't at all helpful, I hoped it would demonstrate the degree of different approaches schools usually take to get to that point. Maybe Ops school is the exception. I don't know but I find it difficult to imagine that with hundreds of pupils all dropping pens and gazing out of windows from time to time that there would be enough "sensory deprivation cells" to contain all of them!? Most schools in my experience have about 5 desks in an isolation room. Give or take.

*piece

I couldn't comment on OP's DS except to say that he and this school clearly are not a good fit, and I accept that arguing whether or not such schools are necessary and should exist (I think they are not and should not) is a distraction from the original thread. I feel strongly that the OP should move her son and access help from him through CAMHS, which she states is in progress.

What concerns me is what happens when there is only one school in a given area - and it's one of these. As a parent, you then have a choice to put your child into a school whose ethos you do not agree with (to put it mildly) or to move(difficult, expensive, loss of jobs and social networks and that is if you have the financial means)/home educate (again, this has financial implications if a parent has to give up work.

Which is why I feel that the proliferation of these draconian schools should not be allowed to continue, especially in areas where there is no school choice.

Is this just your sons word you're taking? RE the looking out of the window, etc.? I bet there's more to it. Like he looks out of the window and ignores the teacher. Or has conveniently 'dropped' his pen/cil many times over. I bet its not as restrictive as he's making out.

This is the last time I will repeat this. My child is not rude or bad, not by nature anyway but after nearly a year of being so “.....” by the school. (I can’t find the correct word) my child has become angry, frustrated, is suffering with quite severe mental health issues (possibly linked to school but not completely) and is now beginning to be rude in terms of questioning authority. I can’t explain it any clearer. My child is frustrated. Has never been in trouble at school before starting this school. It has escalated, I believe, because of the schools handling of minor problems.

Thank you to every body for your advise. My question was more about if this is normal. It seems isolation ect is normal, but the use of it at this school is extreme and over the top.

Also there is no list or formal thing about consequences. As in what behaviours could get you put in isolation. I feel this makes it difficult for teachers too

It doesn't matter whether he is rude "by nature". If he continues, they can and will exclude him. Wake up!

claire
Some schools I believe are that strict, but usually it's a warning then a sanction.

Today a student claimed I unfairly confiscated their bottle and gave them a detention for 'just having a drink' (because I a total dragon who loves to see children suffer in the heat obviously )
Actually, they were messing on, playing with the bottle, had to be spoken to on the way into class and then as I was supporting a student decided to bottle flip. I removed the bottle and sanctioned them. Apparently, they were having a drink and happened to have dropped their bottle in that way.
Note 28 other children all managed to remove their blazers and drink without acting ridiculous.

OP, it ISN'T normal for secondary schools to to be so hard and inflexible with students over looking out of the window etc. It is a growing trend in places like the Michaela School, some academies and that school that said they would put sick buckets by desks rather than let kids out of lessons. It seemed to start with Wilshaw's approach to Mossbourne and some schools have taken it to extremes.

Please take your son out of this school. He is not thriving and their style of 'discipline' is not supporting him. It wouldn't suit me, either, I would feel very suffocated and resentful.

Bibesia what

1)current law on exclusion are you referring to ?? External fixed term (and permanent in extreme cases) are still perfectly legal and are still very much in use as a last resort. After otter sanctions such as inclusion/isolation have failed

Errm, the current law, user56. The point I was responding to was the suggestion that one or two possible responses to disruptive behaviour would be external exclusion. As you have pointed out, this is a last resort, therefore the suggestion that this might be one or two first resorts is clearly unlawful.

2) how on Earth are you in any position to comment on whether the teaching is good or bad in this school?? Have you observed lessons there ??

As I didn't say whether teaching is good or bad in any specified school, the question is irrelevant.

You agreed to it by signing a home school agreement

Not all schools have home-school agreements, and they carry no legal force whatsoever.

So Pointythings you are suggesting that a school should change its behavioural policies which are clearly working for the majority

I don't know about Pointythings, but I would suggest that a school which is operating a behavioural policy that breaches the requirements of the Equality Act 2010 should certainly change that policy so that it complies. A school operating a strict discipline system that breaks the law itself is setting an appalling example.

If you refuse to sign a specific Schools behaviour policy then the school will not admit your child.

Completely untrue in relation to state maintained schools and academies. Once a child has been allocated a school place, that school is not entitled to refuse to admit other than in very specific circumstances such as the discovery of deceit in the original application.

I don't think schools can legally refuse to admit a pupil because of the parent refusing to sign a home school agreement either?

X post thanks bibesia.

@Bibesia you keep referring to unlawful fixed term exclusion procedures. 'Persistently breaking the school code of conduct' is a perfectly lawful reason for exclusion.

Bravo for a state school being rigorous about behaviour and paying attention. It’s good to hear.

This matter is for your DS to conclude upon rather than you OP. Have a chat with him. He’s basically got three alternatives hasn’t he?

1. He gets with the programme
2. He doesn’t get with the programme and continues to have a miserable time
3. He moves school (and loses his current school friends).

catkind
I don't think they can exclude for not signing home school agreement.
They can exclude for persistent defiance. If there is a student who is repeatedly breaking rules, rude and argumentatige when challenged, school have done the usual behaviour policy stuff then they can exclude.

I've seen students on the edge of exclusion because wearing fake nails and make up was more important to them than education and home were of the view that rules they didn't fancy didn't apply to their DC. Simple school uniform. No reason not to follow it. No reason to be repeatedly rude to staff when told to follow the rule.
Sure, there's a reasonable number on MN who'll act like expecting students to follow a simple uniform is the worst thing on earth and would claim school are ruining the child's education by not giving in to their demand to have fake nails and a shiny face, but places have rules. The child was repeatedly rude and defiant. There are consequences for that.

The school also give them double detentions, meaning my child is was in school for 9 hours and 45mins today without talking to another child or being in any lessons, arriving home at 6.30pm

YOU allowed this. YOU are putting him through this.

Just get that poor child out. Why would you do this to your child?! Terrible.

Yes I'd move him.

I’m not oblivious to my child’s behaviour recently and however it sounds, I have been very supportive of the school to put on a united front to my child, obviously in an ideal world my child would be perfectly behaved 100% of the time and this wouldn’t be happening.

The moving schools thing, not so easy. Not really many more in walking distance, don’t mind a short bus journey of half hour though but they either fall into the category of 1)no chance of getting a space 2) ok school but in a bad area I don’t feel my child would be safe travelling around in 3)really bad school, as in under special measures.

@Thesearepearls absolutely this!!!!!

Move your child no matter what.

Some interesting reading on isolation booths. I understand that some (most) schools will just have a room with tables but for those that use isolation booths these make interesting reading.

There seems quite a difference in goverment policy between England and Scotland around inclusion, exclusion etc. I have to say this post has opened my eyes.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mental-health-children-uk-school-isolation-punishment-consequence-booths-education-a8423531.html%3famp

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/children-isolated-for-7-hours-a-day-in-consequence-booths-at-academies-mp_uk_5b33a1a5e4b0b5e692f35b59

More practically OP, you are probably guilty of making a false correlation

You are correlating your son’s behaviour with the school’s discipline

You are failing to observe that your son is now a teenager. Or almost a teenager which is just the same attitudinally. So he will be stroppy and badly behaved

I just don't think it's unreasonable to say that being rude to a teacher or disrupting others' learning will result in having to stare at a wall for the rest of the day without moving or talking. I'd make it for a 12 hour period.

As long as these consequences are clearly advertised, it's the DC's own choice to receive them.

pearls speak for yourself - not all teenagers are stroppy and badly behaved and get into trouble at school.

Thanks for all the replies.

Think I’m going to leave now as some people are being deliberately goady/nasty. Glad some of you aren’t teachers. Or maybe you are, in my child’s school.