Aibu or is school, regarding discipline?

[Imustbemad00]

Would like any information anyone can give me regarding secondary schools and discipline procedures.
My child’s secondary school is strict. I knew it was strict, partly why I chose it. However, in reality, it is causing so many problems. My child has changed so much since starting there, unhappy, suffering with mental health and has developed a bad attitude problem and I will admit is being quite naughty at school and at home. Im worried.

This brings me on to the school rules and discipline. The school penalises children for looking out of a window, or anything viewed as a drop in concentration or messing around. Even dropping a pen. They have to move through the corridors in silence and not make eye contact with anyone and can’t even mess about at break time. They have to sit and chat and be sensible. It’s like they can not have personalities.

The sanctions for bad behaviour are extreme. My child has spent a lot of time in isolation, which means out of lessons. Not learning. Not talking to another person all day. Not great for a child already struggling with mental health.

The school also give them double detentions, meaning my child is was in school for 9 hours and 45mins today without talking to another child or being in any lessons, arriving home at 6.30pm.

I try to work with them as I know my child’s behaviour is the cause of punishments, but honestly feel they are way over the top and their approach is making things worse. They say that those are their policies and that is that.

I’m thinking of moving schools but worry my child’s behaviour could worsen if boundriers were relaxed. But equally they could flourish if not so unhappy and stressed.

So Aibu to think the schools policies are over the top? Is it normal?

I am not against isolation. I am against zero tolerance and 'no excuses'. If the same children are always in isolation they need to find out the underlying problem and deal with it.

Is the school unreasonable about discipline? No, assuming it's clearly explained what the expectations are and what it's ethos about behaviour is.

Yes, it is unreasonable, because it appears to have no understanding of the concept of disability and the need to make reasonable adjustments for it.

I looked at their SEN policy, which is fairly frightening. Its concept of support for social, emotional and behavioural difficulties seems to consist principally of enforcing the rules, and it does not acknowledge sensory difficulties at all other than visual and hearing impairments. The imposition of punishments for children who do not always having the right equipment at the right time is directly discriminatory against children with organisational difficulties such as dyslexia, and I couldn't find any recognition of the concept of reasonable adjustments.

Obligations imposed on teachers don't seem to allow them much of a life, either. It would be interesting to see their contracts and employee manuals.

I'm all for harsher punishment for disrupting lessons and bullying but an untucked shirt or an inability to focus continuously on a teacher will not stop anyone else from getting an education.

I think school discipline should be based on acceptable workplace behaviour and there are almost no workplaces where either of those would be a disciplinary matter.

Besides it must be creepy as fuck for a teacher to have a class of 30 teens all staring at them like a scene from a horror movie.

Maybe it suits some children. I was looking for a nurturing school, in partnership with parents who treated the children as individuals. I also wanted one with good behaviour. Luckily my local comprehensive gave that. It is possible! Lots of schools manage it. If the same children are constantly in isolation it doesn't work.

As a teacher I couldn't stand it either SnuggyBuggy - like Stepford Wives but children. I certainly don't track a speaker at all times- I can't concentrate. Also how can you take notes if doing that and how can a teacher possibly know which notes you find helpful?

Good teaching depends on good relationships and knowing the individual pupil.

As for statistics on isolation my most current experience is across two very different schools. School A: between 3-6 students a day in inclusion, perhaps another 5 come in for break and lunch due to social issues. Average of 4 in a 600 student school. Local mixed academy.
School B: On average less then one student a day. Extremely rare to see more than one student in at a time. Maybe in use twice or on a bad week three times a week. Single sex, non selective, non academy school.

If schools externally excluded instead of used internal inclusion there would be uproar with the parents of these students. Funnily enough it wouldn't affect the other 98% of parents because they have taught their kids to behave and so its unlikely it would negatively effect them. I do think it would focus the minds of some parents if they complained hard enough about inclusion and it was scrapped. Because then the only option would be external exclusion. At home. All day. No social time, quite possibly white walls, just them, a teacher, a textbook, a computer. Hang on. This is sounding an awful lot like the dreaded sensory deprivation again...

Oh God I had teachers like you. Yes you know Mandy needs lots and lots of special, individual attention, so you give Mandy lots and lots of special attention to bring out the best in her. Meanwhile the other 28 of us try and teach ourselves out of a text book or kick back and watch the

performance

You are giving an example of appalling relationships BarbarianMum. You don't favour one child. You need a good relationship with all. All my best subjects were with teachers that I liked and could relate with.

Very inhibiting for the shy, well behaved child- the only option to keep from being noticed - don't risk making mistakes and never say a word unless specifically asked a question- and then as concisely as possible.

@FreshHorizons in a utopian classroom yes. But with all the will in the world where you have a class of 32, with child A partaking in endless low level disruption (the rocking on their chair, the asking for a pen/the loo/ what your doing at the weekend etc while your on the middle of explaining something etc) it is very difficult to develop these 1-2-1 relationships, particularly with poor child B , who just gets on with their work. Multiply this by 5 classes a day and you might get the idea ...

This can't be a uk state school, surely??

I know of at least one school like this, on my PGCE students hated being in that particular school. When you are explaining something to a class all the class have to have their hands above the table, nothing in their hands, not even a pencil and all have to be looking at the teacher.

It's a set up that could have been designed to make an ADHD child break.

It's an academy trust with 36 schools and looking to expand.

OP move him.

I think the original op should consider which option she would prefer. Option 1: Inclusion rooms at school, school work from each lesson missed bought in so they stay on track with what they are studying with assistance from a teacher. Option 2: External exclusion, a parent taking time off work, teaching yourself or paying a tutor.

Barbarian and Maisey I agree with. A whole classes learning should not be sacrificed for the sake of one. Whether you agree or not with the reasons why a student is removed from a lesson is entirely up to you but the school has to have behavioural policies. One teacher cannot just send a student to inclusion, it is usually up to senior management. If you don't like the policy you can and should move schools. But don't be surprised if you find that this is pretty much the same across most schools.

The break time thing is absolutely ridiculous. Kids need to burn off energy to focus....

It is a state school - very few would pay for that regime if they already had a well behaved child.
User56 why treat the majority of the class in such a harsh manner because of a very few disruptive pupils?
To get back to OP- the school is obviously destroying his self confidence and is not good for his mental health so move him if you can.

@FreshHorizons errrrrrrrr who said to treat the rest of the class the same way as the disruptive pupil??? My point was that is the beauty of inclusion rooms. To remove said disruptive pupil so these rich relationships you are talking about can be developed with the rest of the class.

I would move him. ASAP. I would want my child to be at a school where they are treated like a human being.
A strong school works on respect, not zero tolerance.

This school clearly has no idea what the word discipline actually means.

Oh for Heaven’s sake Barbarian, it is possible to maintain discipline in a classroom and a school by applying the most effective way to ensure good behaviour. Good teaching doesn’t mean what you suggest at all.

OP, put your child in a school that doesn’t assume that every child requires boot camp conditions in order to behave. A school that supports young people to behave like responsible citizens by presuming that they have the capability to behave like young citizens (until they demonstrate otherwise). Let him learn to take responsibility for his own behaviour rather than being drilled like an automaton.

I can’t bear these zero tolerance regimes.

WindDoesNotBreakTheBendyTree please define being treated like a human being? Because it varies between countries, societies, communities and organisations. Because in each category the common factor is that when you break the rules you are no longer welcome.

Sounds positively Dickensian. Move schools ASAP.

I think the original op should consider which option she would prefer. Option 1: Inclusion rooms at school, school work from each lesson missed bought in so they stay on track with what they are studying with assistance from a teacher. Option 2: External exclusion, a parent taking time off work, teaching yourself or paying a tutor.

Option 3: good teaching with a sensible discipline system that the pupils actually respect.

The problem with Option 1 is that children are entitled to full time education. Self-evidently constantly spending time in an isolation room with a bit of assigned work and a teacher who may have zero expertise in that subject isn't education. And the problem with Option 2 is that it would be illegal under the current law on exclusion anyway.

@Bibesia what

1)current law on exclusion are you referring to ?? External fixed term (and permanent in extreme cases) are still perfectly legal and are still very much in use as a last resort. After otter sanctions such as inclusion/isolation have failed

2. how on Earth are you in any position to comment on whether the teaching is good or bad in this school?? Have you observed lessons there ??

Wow there is no secondary school I am aware of that is a strict as this one unless it's a military one. Looking out a window?! No eye contact?! Dropping a pen?! This is not acceptable. These things come natural to any child or adult for that case. I just can't get my head around this one. Sounds pretty exaggerated to me.