To think Britain is not anti children and babies?

[crunchymint]

I have two friends who argue that Britain is very anti babies and children and people want children to be seen but not heard.
I totally disagree.
AIBU?

I disagree too. The only place they are not welcome is nightclubs!

The UK is brilliant for families, baby change facilities and high chairs everywhere, loads to do, cheaper prices for children, children's menu options everywhere, decent cots in hotels. I don't understand this concept that we are a child hating nation!

It is also really full of baby changing facilities where you cannot always get a double buggy into, has really heavy doors, not enough space to move around inside and no toilet for the parent/older siblings.

There are also many shops and cafes with really narrow isles that you would struggle to get a pushchair down, very few public benches to sit on when small person is hungry and people who insist on taking drugs in the baby changing facilities and leaving blood and other horrors lieing around afterwards.

Kpo58 should EVERYWHERE be designed with children in mind? That’s unreasonable.

I disagree with you. I think England is very intolerant of babies and children. When I go to Spain or Turkey it always surprises me when people start talking and interacting with my children and picking them up etc

Heh, go to Denmark. Very child centred, but in a good way. We're shite at it here.. From policies at work, to childcare costs, to general attitude towards children.

It is anti families on a deeper level than there being activities for children to do.

The inflexible working hours, the maternity/paternity leave and subsequent impact, the unequal pay, the age children start school etc.

Kpo58 should EVERYWHERE be designed with children in mind? That’s unreasonable

Within reason yes.

Wider isles also benefits those in wheelchairs, more benches also helps the elderly, those who cannot walk too far and those who just want to eat lunch outside and not have to pay to sit at a cafe. A toilet inside the baby changing facilities stops parents having to use the disabled.

On the other hand I wouldn't expect places such as nightclubs to be made child friendly as that wouldn't be appropriate.

I live in Spain and it’s fab for kids not only do people love them but no one bats an eye if my dd is out at 1am they are just nice and bring her a snack and tell me she’s beautiful and cool. (It’s v hot atm 38 so she’s sleeping more in the day).

There are 5 parks within 10min walking two within 2 min, the last time I was in England when she was 4 months at at the bus stop she had a poonami the bar beside it refused to let me change her saying no under 18 I had to walk 10 min away to find a toilet came back missed the bus then had to wait half an hour in the rain...just wouldn’t happen here.

One old woman looked like she would faint or burst into tears as my baby was so beautiful, I have to show her around my local cafe\bars whenever I go. No one cares if she cries they just laugh.

In the uk they like children in the Spain and Asia they adore children.

Also benches galore!

Yes it's anti here.

Children's clothing departments not on ground floor of stores

Women scorned for choosing to be SAHMs

Ridiculously high nursery/childcare fees

Moaning about breastfeeding

Moaning about the noise of children playing - as if they simply can't bear the sound of happy children

Lots of posts on here about hating other people's kids and only liking their own, with smug thread agreement.

Whilst not everywhere has to be child friendly and I don't think children have to be centred in everything, this just isn't a child friendly society. More so, children are viewed as nuisances.

Yes uk is anti babies/children/families.

I had dd overseas. The difference when I came back hit me like a brick!

So many cafes/restaurants not only don't accommodate babies/children, they actively make families feel unwelcome.

I never felt uncomfortable bf in Europe, as soon as I got to uk glares, tuts I was even told at one point - while using an area DESIGNATED for bf in a very well known CHILDREN'S retailer that I was "disgusting doing that in public".

Perfectly normal baby behaviour like crying when needing fed or changed is frowned upon.

And yes putting CHILDREN'S clothes or other retail items anywhere BUT the ground floor is ridiculous!

Then there's stupidly high childcare costs, poorer maternity rights, lack of understanding or flexibility from employers, lack of facilities (parks, benches, changing facilities, food warming facilities...), stupidly high cost children's activities, too many places that ban or actively discourage children for no good reason.

Yabu - uk is not family friendly

What’s the problem with children’s clothes not being on the ground floor? Shops with more than one floor have lifts

I agree with some of the points here but I think generally it’s good and people like children. Only ever been helped breastfeeding (tend to be a bit suspicious of those who claim to have been publically abused for breastfeeding to be honest) and there is no way it makes sense for buildings or roads to be double buggy accessible!

I agree with your friends OP.

Have lived abroad quite a bit and see how other cultures regard children as the most important thing. Here many people see children as something to have, but that should interfere as least as possible with their lifestyles. Also we are very mum-shaming in this country.

When I go to Spain or Turkey it always surprises me when people start talking and interacting with my children and picking them up etc
Oh my god I would freak out and start screaming for police if a complete stranger picked up my child! How can anyone see this as a good thing?

people want children to be seen but not heard
I find it perfectly reasonable for children to be seen and not heard. They should be well behaved and not screaming or running around in public or interrupting adults. The problem is that nowadays too many people think their little cherubs should be allowed to do whatever the hell they like!

Children are fussed over much more in some parts of Europe,
Middle East/North Africa’s and in Turkey, in Turkey ds would often be taken be a waiter and shown around the restaurant (yes I could see him at all times) he loved the attention

From my experience there is little interaction with with children in Germany and Switzerland which I was surprised at

"Shops with more than one floor have lifts" not always and not always big enough for eg double buggies.

Why suspicious? You think we're lying?

I can assure you I'm not, and I wasn't bf in a very obvious way either. (Not that this should matter) It was winter and freezing! I was sat on a bench in an area set aside for bf mothers (next to the loos of course). Dd was tucked into my big coat, I was wearing a shirt & cardigan under that which I'd unbuttoned slightly to bf.

The woman had gone to use the loo, had to queue and after several minutes queuing realised I was bf and THEN made the comment.

Yes, yes, yes to lack of benches, sorely remember this from when DS was learning to walk and from when he was still BF.

Other facilities are pretty good though and attitudes are incredibly mixed so not sure how I feel about this.

Yes but on the continent parents also dont go mental if someone dares to discipline their child if they misbehave in the UK woe be tide anyone attempting to tell a misbehaving child off if the parent is doing fuck all about it as the parent will normally shout and scream or in front of said child say you will NOT tell my child off as that is my area only not even if little lizzy just threw a stone pushed over a toddler etc.

Their child and no one else is allowed to tell said child off, see what happens in the friendly continent when said child misbehaves adults will correct them even if the parents are right there (British people hate this for some reason).

Here in Scotland at least where I am totally normal for kids to be told off by adults other than their parents. But I've also lived in england and I agree it seems to be an issue there.

But I think that's also a fairly new development, I grew up in England and certainly remember my English friends parents would tell my siblings and I off.

I think the set up in the UK is very child centric and most people are so friendly to kids. And there's so much to do/activities/days out.
Then I lived in the Middle East where there isn't much to do with little ones but attitudes are just more relaxed. Restaurants can have kids running around in the evening, strangers hug your kids, they are just part of everything. Thry are accepted in the background of everything you do.

@CanaBanana you are hysterical. In other countries everyone looks out for children simply because they are children, so keeping them entertained and picking them up is the other side of keeping them safe and disciplining them if they misbehave.

When I was young strangers used to interact with kids, pick them up, etc and tell them off if they misbehaved. But there was more an attitude that that was fine. Now many mothers do not like this and so strangers are more reluctant to. I have seen many threads on here where someone has complained and been outraged because a stranger touched their child. I think in England at least, there is a very strong sense that parents own their babies and kids, and thus strangers should only interact with babies and children after asking the permission of the parents. So I think this change is very much parent led.
I would agree that we are not as family focused as some cultures. In some cultures family is everything.

But it’s not about changing units, is it? It’s about availability of affordable childcare, ample school places of an acceptable standard, workplace policies that don’t discriminate against working mothers..... the UK is appalling at these things.

I think that here in England we have CHILDREN as a separate entity/category whereas in other countries they're just people but smaller. Not sure I've expressed it very well but hopefully some of you will get what I mean.