To think Britain is not anti children and babies?

[crunchymint]

I have two friends who argue that Britain is very anti babies and children and people want children to be seen but not heard.
I totally disagree.
AIBU?

The restaurants may have highchairs and crayons, but it's the other diners that are anti children, not the restaurants themselves.

Before 7pm they are adored. After 7pm take them outside only if you have skin as thick as an elephants. We live in South America so my children are often out after 7pm. I don't know if that equates to liking children though, depends on the motives of the adults. I will say that children having tantrums in public is seen as something that children just do, and many people will attempt to distract/cheer the child up rather than tut and complain.

Glute that's fine. As long as they are supervised.
My local pub has the most stunning beer garden. Enter kids, screaming and running around like it's a play park while the parents are getting wined up. Then they hide around and smoke. The parents that is, not the kids. 99% whiite middle class people that come in at tea time possibly having picked up.DC's from childcare.
Within an hour or so they are too pissed to care. Often they will disappear and come back with morelys dirty chicken for their kids dinner. And another bottle of wine.

Awful. This is on school nights. There's beautiful parks within a few minutes walking in every direction. So no excuse that they might not have a garden. hardly likely as they all seem to be minted

Monty27 I think I know where you live! Unless this is a common thing as that sounds exactly like the local near my mum in South London.

Meh. The UK is pretty middle of the road, we get a lot more mat/pat leave then countires like the USA or France but a lot less than in Scandinavia.

Childcare costs in the UK are extortionate though, it’s frankly baffling why the government do not allow childcare to be paid entirely from pre tax salary. So many women leave the workforce because they cannot afford to return to work and they are the lowest earner.

I spent the 6 months before my eldest DC started school paying more in childcare and travel costs than I was earning, even though I was earning 50k....

It would be helpful if there were free childcare hours for children under 3.

Monty27 - that sounds awful!!

A pub isn't really a place for children IMO. I can't stand the smoke, so I'd never sit in a pub garden and definitely not with my kids.

We go out (when we've saved up enough tesco vouchers) and we tend to eat out late with our kids. They are always good, but we always get stared at, and we've even had comments about how late our littlest one is up.

We went to France a few years ago, and we were out in the evening with (2 kids at the time) and it was so relaxing, everyone was also there with their kids, and it was just so nice.

It's difficult for us as we have no friends/family so no one can babysit. At the same time I love going out with my kids, so it's no big deal.

We're very lucky we have a garden, because it's free, and we spend every summer evening out till it's gets dark. I'm sure the neighbours have issues with that too, but I can't be doing with it. We're as quiet as is possible, whilst enjoying our garden.

I think the UK is institutionally anti-children. Housing policy that mitigates against families with young children, school holidays all at the same time across the country so increasing holiday costs, expensive childcare, many utility and appointments not with families in mind, and a transport policy that is very anti-family compared with much of Europe.

Given that one in 4 women reports employment discrimination when having a baby, I’s say that’s pretty unfriendly. That women are regularly hrrassed and thrown out of cafes or pubs for discreetly breast feeding. that land lords are allowed to stipulate “no children”, that mums are still criticised in the nastier newspapers for being single or working.
The UK is much better than the US but otherwise, I’d say it’s pretty poor.

What’s the issue with landlords being able to stipulate ‘no children’? If they’re the licensee, it’s their choice!

I have one local pub left that isn’t accommodating to children and it’s bliss! If it goes, I’ll spend my weekends at home because I enjoy being in a ‘grown up’ environment when I’m having a quiet drink.

In the UK people have got carried away with making every place family friendly and this has actually created more resentment.

I read 'landlords' as referring to the owners of property. When much of housing available to youngsters - i.e. those of reproductive age - is privately rentals only, and much rented accommodation can legitimately shut out families and children, how can a country not be described as anti- family and children?

Lots of legislation to ensure you can change a shitty nappy and breastfeed but attitudes are lagging behind many countries.

I've lived around the world and found lots of other countries are much more welcoming. Waitresses playing with children is common in Asia so the parents can relax. Other families smiling at semi-noisy children.

I think the difference is summed up by the example of a few years ago when our 4 and 6 year old were taken into the kitchen and helped make pizza. In the UK there would have been the golden triangle of red flags with a male chef alone with children, H&S and poor Food & Hygiene. They, and we, thought it was lovely.

People are obsessed with rights and legislation and look to take offense at anything but have lost sight of the bigger picture.

@gluteustothemaximus people making ignorant comments about the time ‘your’ child goes to bed is so annoying isn’t it!?! How do they know the sleeping habits of a child that isn’t theirs? For instance 16 month old ds has always been a bad sleeper and his schedule has changed multiple times and taking him out was the only thing that would settle him down than being cooked up in the house and ds screaming. We literally tried everything to get him to bed earlier and in the end decided to just go with it meaning a happier more peaceful evening for everybody. When he’s old enough to understand I’ll enforce a bedtime.

Me and dh were in Ikea cafe and had moved completely out of the way to be on our own with ds. We did this because ds is learning and gets overly excited and although we shush him all of the time and take objects from him that he likes to bang on any close surface we don’t wish to disturb anybody. It’s a large cafe and well known for being a prime place to take the kids leaving people who have no kids or don’t want to be around kids to enjoy all the nicer quieter venues I used to before having ds. It was lunchtime on a weekday so prime time for toddlers/pre schoolers. Despite dozens of other seats a older miserable middle aged couple decided to sit right next to us. That is fine if that’s where they choose but not fine if they hate children. The woman then stared at us coldly especially at 16 month old ds though our whole meal. They didn’t speak to each other for a whole 45 minutes. It was extremely unsettling to say the least and if ds so much sneezed her icy glare intensified. There were so many vacant tables and lunch nicer seats too. These people seemed to be making it their life’s mission to target somebody and find something to complain about. She stared to the very end even watching me clean up ds’s mess and restoring the table back to the way I found it. She got nothing to complain about. They bloody left right after us too, maybe because the entertainment was over!

When my daughter was smaller and in the pushchair, life only got complicated in shops that overstuff their shop floor with stock so you couldn't get through. (I'm looking at you Sports Direct).

I used to hate the children's menus in restaurants because the choice was limited. Chicken nuggets/fish fingers/cheese and tomato pizza/spaghetti bolognese. Meh. In Italy (where my husband has relatives) we used to just order a half portion from the regular menu and it was made with no fuss.

But generally I think the UK is family-friendly. Some tweaks here and there, and it would be better.

@Graphista I've also lived in Europe and think your post is 100% spot on.

@VanGoghsLeftEar agree with you on the limited kids menus.

The UK has loads on offer for children and families.
I'm generally fond of, not just tolerant of most kids when we're out and happy to allow the ones who ask politely if they can stroke our dogs.
Just recently I've noticed a few incidents where parents sat on their phones oblivious while children run amok; two toddlers ran up to our dogs and tried to kiss them, I stopped one child running into a road from a beer garden and another at a cafe that was dragging chairs about and knocked into a man eating.
Most people who choose to be parents get on with it and apart from occasional mishap are very respectful of others. It's just a few who cba.

Previous post is spot on!

I laughed out loud at the notion that waitresses play with children in Asia - the inference being that the same should happen in the UK. Most waitresses are paid beneath the living wage and certainly don’t get paid enough to act as your children’s entertainer whilst you enjoy a peaceful meal.