To think Britain is not anti children and babies?

[crunchymint]

I have two friends who argue that Britain is very anti babies and children and people want children to be seen but not heard.
I totally disagree.
AIBU?

I think the uk is great with kids. I had twins 10 years ago in London. People would always stop me and chat about them. I don't drive so I would have to use public transport, people of every age would ask if I needed help getting off the bus. Sometimes I would have to walk a couple of stops to get to a quiet bus stop, once I had to get off for the wheelchair space but to fair the wheelchair user offered to wait for the next one but I only had a couple of stops to go, so it was a friendly exchange. I think it's getting better in terns of available forma of child care bit its so expensive.

I moved to rural Sweden when the children were 7. There is open hostility to SAHM here. When I said to my son's teacher, I didn't work,I am renovating a house, she said, 'oh so are you a little 50s wifey then?'. The Dentist asked 'What do you do all day? It's really sneered at up here.

I think Britain is pretty unfamily friendly but I don’t think it has much to do with the number children’s menus and high chairs available. It’s to do with the attitude that children are some kind of lifestyle choice that parents ought handle without it having any real impact on anyone else at all.

I don’t think we were a child-friendly country when other adults used to talk to children more. Adults were often pretty awful to children when I was growing up - with some notable exceptions, but most of the adult interaction was about making sure children weren’t a nuisance to the grown ups, not about being nice to the children. The parent push away from approving of other adults talking to their kids is driven largely by the nastiness of so many of those other adults.

DD1 was born in England. I remember my mum visiting once and commenting "I had no idea the British loved babies so much!" I think facilities are mostly very good in the UK- parent and child parking, excellent changing/feeding facilities, supermarket trolleys that accommodate a car seat or any number of permutations of kids- you don't necessarily get these services where I live now in Canada. And these are the small things that make day to day life with children so much easier.

How I wish they had babyccinos in the coffee shops here!

I think there are two sides to this.

I live in Asia and I have noticed that people really try to engage with my toddler (the teenage boy who played peekaboo with her behind his shopping bag on a train really surprised me!) and there are a lot more smiles, waves and "hellos" for her here than I'd expect back home.

However, I think the Brits are a lot more tolerant of tantrums and other typical toddler behaviour than the locals here. If DD puts so much as a toe out of line, 90% of heads will turn to stare and the tutting begins.

The UK is very good at token gestures - high chairs, baby changing units, children's menus etc.

The UK is - like in many cases - utterly rubbish at actually doing something meaningful when it comes to children.

I lived in Germany for a while and they still take the whole village-approach to children (which is a lot more subtle over there, too). Strangers will happily approach children (tell them off where necessary) and help out clearly struggling mothers.

Work places are often happy to have children around when nurseries etc. are shut for the day, so long as the children are well-behaved, and everyone will often take it in turns to entertain the children for the day. Nurseries are harder to get into, but heavily subsidised.

Children's menus don't exist (or are rare), but every restaurant is perfectly happy to prepare a discounted children's portion for younger children and for OAPs. That makes for far healthier and more interesting eating than the UK standard fish fingers and chips or bland pasta in sauce.

There are parks everywhere you look, and they're reasonably well looked-after.

Schools have decent after-school care for children of working parents. Maternity leave is 12-14 months and state-subsidised with a minimum monthly grant of 300EUR, often housing benefit etc. on top for single parents or a decent cut of the wage for working mums.

That's all on top of other little things like far smaller steps on staircases, bigger living spaces, better and more accessible public transport etc.

It has its downsides - men are often less involved with their children and mothers are expected to do the lion's share of childcare, but the opportunities are far better.

But the UK has a lot to learn.

@Mondkind
Don't know what part of Germany you lived in but here in Bavaria no one ever speaks or interacts. Nevermind talk to or tell off other people's children.
You are right about the children's portions in restaurants.
The childcare is reasonably priced but that doesn't matter as there are no places.
You can't get a job relying on childcare as here they are rationed and you can only have one if you are already working. You actually have to show an employment contract. This has been the norm for 20 years. According to friends of mine with grown up kids.
There are still some nasty attitudes to working mothers. If you are in a nuclear family and a SAHM then it's all good but if you want to work/need to work/are a single parent it's not designed for you.
It's not perfect.
Actually although the UK is expensive for childcare it has plenty of places, different options and it's flexible.

@LadyOdd Spain may be nice to children but a lot of Spanish are absolutely awful to dogs - dumping them, drowning them, chopping feet off and hanging them.. plus the awful dog pounds (pererras).

I think there is a difference. I’m just back from turkey and my toddler was treated like a rock star in restaurants and seemingly every time we went into town someone would give her a little present. The only time she’s ever had similar attention has been in family run Italian restaurants here.

Facilities are good as are some services but I think the high cost of living in the UK means it is hard to spend as much time with children. Lots of people are struggling with little family support because they have moved away from family for work, people get out of paying child maintenance

The UK is the least tolerant of children of all the places we've lived as expats. When I had my first child he had horrible reflux and was fairly unsettled. I had awful PND and when I finally plucked up the courage to go out with him I had to take the bus. There was a long queue and we waited for three buses to go past because people kept pushing in front of the pram. When I finally did get on I realised my pram wouldn't fit down the isle. It hadn't really occurred to me that this would be an issue so I had to ask the people behind me to step off so I could go through the back doors. I was treated to the bus driver shouting "stupid woman!" and various other muttered insults about having a big pram. I had no idea my pram was too big until that moment. We got on at the back and DS was now really hungry but no one would give me a seat even though I was now holding a tiny DS who was howling for a feed. I just stood there and cried and no one batted an eye.

When DS was 5 and DD was 10 months we went to Disney in Florida but DH had to work part of the trip. We ended up staying in a business/golf hotel for the part DH had to work and I was really worried that people would be hugely unimpressed with my two. DS has autism and will happily start talking to people he doesn't know about his interests but he talks at you. Most people in the UK will simply blank him. It's as if he's not there. On our first day DS wouldn't go in the pool because it was too cold and temperature differences are really hard on him. There was a huge hot tub (not that hot mind) but it had adults in it. I told him we couldn't disturb the adults but maybe if we came back later no one would be in it. Said adults were quite happy to tell me I was wrong and to hop in. They all chatted to DS and played with the baby.

Everything was so easy on that trip. People were so friendly. They genuinely enjoyed the kids and it made my life so much less stressful.

I think the UK has got less tolerant of children in the last 10 years or so because there seems to be so many now that are placed on pedestools by their parents which makes them think they are untouchable. They behave as they want and their parents accept it/brush If off as normal.
Put 25 of those kind of people together and youve got disaster and in turn means more people get fed up with children.

I remember being told off by friends parents and it was fine hasn't scared me for life. Nowadays you do that and their parent demands to know why you are disaplining their "perfect" child.

I live in Denmark.
Childcare is massively subsidised. If you have more than one then the cheapest one you get a 50% discount. I pay about £350 per month for full time nursery and after school club.
I have 2 care days per child in my contract until they are 7. So 4 paid days off to spend with my kids, each year.
I have childs first sickday as paid leave. As does dh.
There is very much the mentality of it takes a whole village to raise a child. So people are more tolerant of children behaving like - well, children.
However If youre a sahp there are almost no daytime groups or activities.
There is very little pressure to be sociable when you have small dcs. Playdates dont happen all that often.
Birthdays: dont have parties until they are in school. You either invite all of the same gender or the whole class. Present costs max 2.50.

In the UK
There are so many more activities, days out etc.
No vat on kids clothes and shoes.
But my god the pressure to keep dc quiet is unreal! And its really difficult to express this acurately, but the anxiety generally around children and childraising is very high in comparison. And I think the children pick up on this. Again its difficult to describe but children in uk restaurants just sound more anxious.

‘It’s to do with the attitude that children are some kind of lifestyle choice that parents ought handle without it having any real impact on anyone else at all.’

Kind of agree with this. People/families seem to be less willing to help each other out in the the UK. You see this attitude all the time on here ‘You chose to have children, why should your family be obliged to help out for a few hours EVER?’. In other countries everyone just mucks in because it’s a kind thing to do.

Children do get treated more as a nuisance in the UK. I don’t think having ‘child-friendly’ options on menus really proves that the UK likes children.

@RayRayBidet Admittedly, I lived in the former Eastern Block, which has historically been more child-friendly as mothers have always been expected to work. Bavaria is and has always been slightly different to the rest of the country and most of all hugely expensive.

Don't kid yourself into believing, though, that the supply/ demand thing for nurseries is met in Britain; in some places outside big cities it's a mssive struggle and I had to put my firstborn's name down for nursery when I found out I was pregnant as spaces were so rare where I lived.

And while you may need a work contract in Germany, you can get them in advance and then book your space; the state will even help you find one anywhere within a reasonable distance where friends of mine live and once you're in the system, adjusting your hours is easier, too (I am good friends with someone working in state childcare where I used to live; she once told me how it all worked).

I agree with your friend.
The attitudes towards children here aren't friendly.
In the last 18months we've had new neighbours from Poland and Portugal.
We would frequently be telling DS to be quiet in our garden, until one day they told us to stop, relax, he's just a child let him play. And how they are used to hearing noise from children until late at night at home.
They also frequently give him ice creams or little bits to try (they do ask us first), and whenever we take a parcel in for them they collect it but give DS a little gift, as well as token gifts for Christmas and Easter and even an advent calendar!

Of course as some said they will also tell DS off if he's doing anything out of line or anything they think is dangerous. He's frequently told by them to put his shoes on because he runs out without them. It was strange at first but it does feel like an extension to our family. DS even hugs them and he doesn't do that to his own Grandma.

It has taken so much pressure off for us knowing that if he cried in the night or had a tantrum at home, or we wanted to keep him outside and make the most of a summer evening that we didn't have to worry about comments or complaints.

It must vary depending on where you live. I think my area is great for children, lots of very cheap play groups/toddler groups, loads of parks, never had anything but encouragement about bf, dc are welcomed on public transport etc. The last 3 weekends we've taken thekids to free events and festivals (big literature festival with kids shows and events on, a teddy bears picnic at local attraction and a free entry day at a national trust house ). I can't think of a pub nearby that doesn't allow dc. My dc get fussed over everywhere they go.
It's illegal to ask a bf mother to leave a cafe/shop. Most of my friends got 10-12 months mat leave(compare this with the States), everyone is entitled to 15 hours early years, lots are entitled to 30 hours (though it's been a bloody shambles it doesn't suggest antagonism towards dc), shared parental leave, dp works in academia where there are numerous schemes /special grants to get women back to work.....
Maternity services are shockingly under funded but so is the entire nhs so not dc specific.

I have to say that i would hate it if every bar or restaurant i went into had children running around it. I've never struggled to find somewhere to take DS for a meal or to a coffee shop, because there are plenty of family friendly places available. I wouldn't be taking him to the swankiest places in town.

People generally ignore small children here, or frown if they make a noise, or tut trying to squeeze past the buggy. It astounds me how many people drop doors on you when you're carrying a toddler!

In Scandinavia, the ME and Southern Europe people seem to react to small kids with delight! Waiters talk to them and play with them, bring them special snacks, offer to hold the baby while you eat. I remember a waiter in Spain dancing around the tables singing to my grumpy 10 month old! Other people don't react with annoyance when they're noisy, they just accept it as part of life. I've also seen a stranger catch an escapee near the road and tell him off before returning the boy to his mother! I wish the UK was more like this.

You do get threads on here where everyone stares they loathe all children but their own

But it is no way what I experience with my little baby and children. Random people are really friendly, some even come over from another part of a cafe for eg to be friendly

I think being British makes you feel like we are a very child/family friendly country, but I’ve experienced other countries, they are much more family/child friendly. I really struggle to go swimming in the Uk. The pools are often cold (compared to where I am) the changing areas are so small and inconvenient.
Nurseries are super expensive in th uk.

It is much harder to afford to work here though I agree

Childcare is very expensive in the UK because of the high standards. In some countries there are no or very low standards. And our childcare is subsidised here. Although not enough.

Yes I just remembered the threads where people say they’ll only use holiday childcare if it’s run by U.K. staff - so those standards cost more

I live in London. Yesterday I caught the bus as usual with DC1 (3) on scooter and DC2 (baby) in pram loaded with shopping.

People helped me on and off with the buggy, guided DC1 to a seat while I was parking it, helped him hold his scooter, wiped his nose when it was running, chatted to him. This is routine. DC2 is very often chatted to/cuddled/played peekaboo with by strangers - he had a cuddle with a grandmother from Iran in the local supermarket a few days ago. A girl of about 14 told me "your baby is beautiful" on the bus. When we were travelling the length of the UK with both kids a waiter held 11 week old DC2 for the whole length of our meal so I could eat.

I don't really recognise this totally child-intolerant world other people describe. I've always found people willing to help and who understand that kids are kids. Work could be more family-friendly, I'm sure, but I have been helped so many times while out with kids - and I've had more than one woman cross a cafe to tell me that they love to see someone breastfeeding.

"Yes it's anti here.

Children's clothing departments not on ground floor of stores"

Are you serious