To think Britain is not anti children and babies?

[crunchymint]

I have two friends who argue that Britain is very anti babies and children and people want children to be seen but not heard.
I totally disagree.
AIBU?

Chinese media have been discussing the concern about "Little Emperor Syndrome" since the 90s. Here is an article written by a Chinese mother and child on the topic.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/may/23/chinas-little-emperors-the-children-without-siblings

I think our working practices are anti family.

Most of you are banging on about facilities, kids menus, spaces on a bus etc etc which are all things to make your life easier as parents! You child doesn't care if they can't find a space on a bus ffs!

I'm pretty sure most kids would care if they are stuck in the rain for the next hour feeling tired and hungry at the end of a day because there wasn't any space on an infrequent bus route. Small children would also care if they are stuck in a dirty nappy or wet themselves due to the lack of toilet changing facilities.

Some people / businesses don’t understand the meaning of “family friendly”. We went to a christening when my DS1 was 18 months. The after party was in a pub. I looked up the pub beforehand, which stated it was family friendly and they had high chairs etc. Plus considering they had agreed to host a christening I thought it would be fine. When we arrived there was one high chair which was being used by the girl who was being christened. We were seated right by the door to the kitchen, so when I got up to change DS’s nappy I was moaned at by the staff because they were bringing food out. We didn’t stay long so didn’t spend much money either!

I work part time and I’ve noticed a huge difference in how I’m treated as a customer in shops etc when I’m in smart work clothes vs when I’m in jeans with the kids. Never mind that when I’m with the kids I feel like I’m doing a more important job!

Other examples include not being able to get into a baby changing room with an average sized pushchair and being moaned at for using a lift whilst heavily pregnant...

In France people eat at lovely restaurants with children quite late into the night, but UK children turn into pumpkins if they are not asleep by 7pm, so there's that.

We are also extremely offended if we see a child out past 7pm as they are all running into the waiting staff, and when sat they are listening to iPads on full volume with no ear phones. So says mn anyway.

However, something we have in common with other countries is our attitude to certain disabilities - I can always guarantee a snidey comment about ds on the rare occasion I give him a public airing and have even been overlooked when we got to the front of the ice cream queue because a minority of people are such utter shits.

I don't think it's anti children but definitely anti family. The expectations re working hours for anyone in a job that actually pays enough to support a family is ridiculous.

"But I think children here are also spoiled and entitled in a comparative sense too." Agree with that too. Also a generational thing.

The stuff British kids now get let away with by their parents, my generation (mid 40's) didn't get away with, and in European countries I've both visited and lived in certain behaviour wouldn't be tolerated. I'm thinking particularly of behaviour in schools. And I don't blame the teachers for that, they're hamstrung, I blame both parents and the govt. parents for not raising their children to treat school & teachers appropriately and with respect, govt (not just this one), for hamstringing schools in what sanctions they can apply to bad behaviour. I remember corporal punishment being banned while I was at school, but none of the schools I attended had used it for quite some time. One was quite a new school and had never used it, and that's absolutely correct. But I honestly feel it's gone too far the other way. Parents even challenge detention or extra homework now, which is ridiculous.

And if a non-parent in England (in my experience) tried to tell off eg a teenager for vandalism they'd more than likely get a barrage of verbal abuse if not worse!

In European countries I've lived in and visited it's far more acceptable for non-parents to tell off children and the children (generally) apologise and behave better - not least because people are also not wary of telling the parents and rather than the parents automatically defending their precious perfect child, the child is likely to get another telling off from the parents.

I've a good number of friends & family living in other countries too, and with the exception of USA which seems to have similar issues with children being put on a pedestal, they've made comments indicating similarly that children are welcomed BUT expected to behave reasonably.

Aaron - I was stunned at first! Then asked her "well where exactly do you suggest I feed her if not in a feeding area? Am I supposed to starve her?!" At which point she went off mumbling - idiot! The tutters I just ignored. Dd is 17 now so it was a long time ago I HOPE it's better now but I'm not convinced it definitely is when I see comments on here and other SM about public bf.

Aaron

I have breastfed 8mo DS in public plenty of times since he was born and have never, ever had so much as a tut... let alone any negative comments. Obviously this may not be everyone's experience but it is mine.

Never had negative comments about breastfeeding, generally no comments and occasional positives.

I'm sorry for the lady who had the awful bus experience but that again is not my experience.

Purple are generally more chatty and relaxed on holiday I find, so fellow holiday makers having time to chat to your child could be down to that.

There are two separate issues in a way, 1, how we as a community support each other. 2, how government legislation supports children and families.

Personally I think we do 2 really well, not perfectly, but well. 9 months mat leave paid. You don't get that in Australia or New Zealand or USA. Child care provision could be better but 30 hours for working parents is great.

Whether or not we do 1 well? Depends on your expectations. I feel many people take time to talk to my child, interact with him, make him feel special, treat him like a person etc. Not everyone, I don't expect them to, and I'm not offended if they don't.

I'm pretty sure most kids would care if they are stuck in the rain for the next hour feeling tired and hungry at the end of a day because there wasn't any space on an infrequent bus route

So campaign for better space then.

The only reason there are spaces at all is because those with disabilities that use wheelchairs campaigned for it.

all and i mean all buildings should be wheelchair accessible (which would then be pushchair accessible) with wide doors, no steps, appropriate sized bathroom access etc etc etc.
breastfeeding needs ongoing/more support and parks need security so that young children can better enjoy them.

It’s funny op that you’ve started this thread, as I was coming on here to start one stating the opposite!

I feel really uncomfortable taking my children out in the U.K., and I feel far worse when I’ve recently returned from a foreign holiday. I just can’t relax in the UK, despite being British myself. I am sick of snidey comments, eye rolling, tutting, people refusing to move, people purposely barging into me, my pram or my toddler etc - I could go on.

People in Greece, Spain, Croatia and France are so friendly, tolerant and embracing of families and children, that it really shows up UK attitudes. My DD’s are welcomed genuinely in restaurants, cafés and bars, and people try to help in tantrum situations, or if a child is upset. My children are fussed over even in the street and on the beach. People of all ages stop to speak to my DD’s and my DH and I, in English or their native language. They want to embrace/cuddle/kiss/celebrate our young children. I do not expect to be treated like this, but I’d much rather it was this way in the U.K. rather than being made to feel like a massive inconvenience/invisible/unwelcome etc.

My DH and I are even more pleasantly surprised when we’re treated so respectfully and courteously as a family abroad, as we are a mixed race family (white and Asian), and Londoners too. As such, we are constantly fed the mantra that we are the most tolerant, open, multicultural, blah blah blah place in the solar system, yet we’re treated far better in other countries.

You only have to look at the hundreds of threads on MN about people not wanting strangers to interact with their children in any way to understand why people don't often 'celebrate' other peoples children.

A lot of people in the UK are funny about other people around their kids, more than most people being anti kids iyswim.
I used to take baby ds to the local library and cafe and the women there used to coo over him and ask to pick him up. He was usually attached to me so I would gratefully say "please do!" and they would cuddle him and pass him about.
Older people where I am from used to stop me to chat when I was out with the buggy and press money fo't baba into my hand.
I used to take him out for lunch a bit older-3 or 4-and the restaurant staff always smiled and treated us well but I made sure he knew before going that restaurant behaviour has to be extra special! (.and I always left a good tip!)
It's not that the UK is anti child, it's just anti entitled behaviour (on one side) and anti strangers interacting with kids (on the other side). People are just, in general, a bit more uptight about things in Britain, it's not specific to children.
Having said that I breastfed everywhere, never even got a glance, let alone a tut!
My experience was that people would fall over themselves to ignore it so as not to make you feel awkward.

I think it's pretty anti Children in the UK too.
All mine were born in the US, and that is crap for maternity leave, UK wins that one hands down. But everywhere was accessible with a pushchair, breastfeeding was everywhere, SAHM's were normal and encouraged. Schools actually liked the kids, I find the schools in UK don't seem to like the kids, and are quite negative and controlling so they stifle creativity. They like regimented little soldiers.

Accessibility laws in the UK have meant that new builds must be wheelchair user friendly, which in turn means pushchair friendly. A win for everybody.

Really? Then why do I keep seeing new builds with steps outside the front door?

Oh as if it is ‘anti’ children. Here we have a lot for kids. Restaurants, supermarkets, activites, high chairs, toilets. Our children have welfare, free school meals, a right to an education no matter how badly ofsted rate it... if you go to a majority of places abroad, kids menus, provisions, changing etc (apart from these scandamavian utopias) are scarce. We are definitely not anti children.

I can see why people would think this based on my experience with a small child. Even in Ikea cafe on a working weekday some people like to complain about children under 2 making noise. You would think they would choose a quieter posher venue if they should wish for such deathly silence.

Alittle more understanding in certain areas would go along way by some (probably a minority though)

I think the UK is great for being child friendly, I would go as far as saying we are child centric, rather than treating them as an equal. I frequent public libraries and the change in attitude in the last 10 years is remarkable. The library is no longer a 'quiet' space and children are racing around loudly and no one bats an eyelid apart from me.

Countries that have a very lax attitude wrt to children are generally more relaxed anyway; I don't think it is a child-loving issue per se. For example I was in Spain several years ago and babies were sleeping in buggies and toddlers sleeping on chairs at 1am. That could be a safeguarding issue in UK and is not considered appropriate for the child's sake.

@sugarisamazing so is the uk to many different animals especially wildlife and birds which are in decline, I love watching storks fly past my window and see the little dog who I assume is homeless getting scraps and water.

Where I used to live a group of teenagers threw bricks at deer and beat up the person who tried to stop them.

I live in Catalonia so don’t mention the bulls they know it’s cruel and disgusting.

I was eating dinner earlier as a stranger played peek a boo behind my back to distract her while I ate, a common occurrence I love the Spanish ❤️ Went to the supermarket yesterday I couldn’t move from the old ladies making fuss over DD!

It’s a mixed bag in my experience. There are issues with work/life balance in general here that I find difficult and seems to also be a lot of pressure on parents to return to work very soon after having children which perpetuates the idea that children should ‘fit in’ with adult life.

Conversely, kids here really are able to do pretty much what they like! In the last week alone I’ve seen kids racing around the doctors’ surgery, crawling along the floors of a supermarket and repeatedly screaming in a restaurant (after 8pm). It’s not that the UK is unfriendly to children, it’s that many parents think that their child has a right to disturb others.

Many other Northern European countries may have a more relaxed attitude to the presence of children, but there are more places that are designated for adults only. Back home, for example, I can go for a quiet drink in a bar and assume that is an adult space to relax in peace. Everywhere in the UK seems to be falling over itself to welcome families and maybe this actually becomes counterproductive.

Sadly kids can be anti social.
Imho it's because the parents aren't parenting properly