To think Britain is not anti children and babies?

[crunchymint]

I have two friends who argue that Britain is very anti babies and children and people want children to be seen but not heard.
I totally disagree.
AIBU?

I think it is quite anti in a comparative sense. But I think children here are also spoiled and entitled in a comparative sense too.

If the children and parents are not very pleasant and relaxed it’s harder to establish a child-positive culture.

People in the UK cant stand babies/kids.

I sat with some colleagues yesterday and one started bemoaning his sister for picking up her baby when it cried.

Our attitudes are Victorian in the extreme.

I don’t think we’re anti children as such... at least I’ve never felt that.

I do think though that British people are hesitant to involve themselves in other people’s business for fear of retaliation. I will often tell other kids off... not shouting, but I’ll have a word if they are behaving badly, and I like that people do that for me if I’ve missed something my little darlings are up to. It rarely happens though, I don’t know if this is a british thing, but my Eastern European neighbours will comment to my DC on stuff, the other morning my son was pulled up on not wearing a cycle helmet (he’d forgotten, I wasn’t paying attention) so after a light criticism from the neighbour, came back in to get it. I like that 👌

It isn't so much that we are anti children. More like we are anti entitled knobs of parents.

I think there is an attitude, particularly on Mumsnet, that children are a nuisance that shouldn't be inflicted on other people. I know they can be loud and boisterous, and parents do need to be considerate to other adults looking for peace and quiet. But there's something really special about their excitement at things we jaded adults have stopped noticing.

I now understand what people mean when they say childhood is the happiest time of one's life. I aim to make it so for my DDs. (It wasn't for me at all but that isn't for this thread.)

I find it sad that some adults can't find it in their hearts to have some tolerance of children, who are after all still learning. It can be hard, I know, I get fed up with some children's misbehaviour at soft play but I blame the parents, who are invariably playing with their phones or chatting with friends and not supervising their children. (Rant over.)

We're about right, I'd say. It's not logical to label a country 'anti-child' because society doesn't revolve 100% around children, which isn't good for them anyway. Nor (in response to some of the replies on here) should we be labelled anti-child just because most of us wouldn't dream of picking up a stranger's child without asking. (That's just weird and slightly freaky IMHO.)

As for the 'seen and not heard' thing - well, of course that's way OTT for day-to-day life, and yes kids are naturally exuberant and that's great, and something to be encouraged, but at the same time there are certain occasions when it's important to be quiet and some people seem loath to teach their children that. I've lost count of the social occasions I've attended where adults have had no chance to catch up with each other because everything has to revolve around the children at all times, to say nothing of events such as weddings where some parents seemed to think it was their kids' divine right to run around/scream and shout even during the ceremony/speeches etc. I suppose this observation will get me labelled anti-child too, but that's OK.

In a way, yes but then go to eg Italy or some other 'child loving' country and try to get around with a buggy...it's a nightmare. No dropped kerbs, no buggy/wheelchair slopes, steps up into shops..
But then strangers will try and stuff sweets into your baby's mouth..
bizarre really.

Child poverty has been rising dramatically in the uk over the last 8 years. It’s horrendous.

There are now 4.2 million children living in poverty here. This government’s austerity measures and changes to the benefit system have been making it worse.

This is anti children

On average 9 children live in poverty out of a class of 30 and this is set to increase.

Here are is some more info :
www.cpag.org.uk/content/child-poverty-facts-and-figures

We're about right, I'd say. It's not logical to label a country 'anti-child' because society doesn't revolve 100% around children,

Again, a massive misunderstanding that being pro child means revolving around children . It means accepting them as part of , and not in addition to , the regular culture . It doesn't mean extra facilities, kids meals , high chairs and changing mats . It's in the attitude . In the UK we do all these token gestures but we are still anti children and get pissy about including them .

There's a cognitive dissonance in England about 'family friendly'.

What people usually mean is I want to be able to access nearly every facility (fair enough) and not have anyone look annoyed or comment if my child is being disruptive (again, fair enough in a lot of situations) but I don't want anyone to talk to, touch, look at my child too much or have an opinion about my parenting.

I think it is legally and structurally accommodating - baby change facilities, high chairs, library sessions, etc.

I think it is culturally very unwelcoming to babies, children and families.

Here many people see children as something to have, but that should interfere as least as possible with their lifestyles

I completely agree with this statement. Many people view children as an inconvenience - in some circumstances by their own parents!

Even considering language used "He is a good baby - he doesn't cry" meaning he is a bad baby if he does?? That is how babies communicate!
People will often exclaim how hard done to THEY are if they have an upset baby... but rarely try to see things from the child's perspective. "Oh poor me, I decided to have a baby and now all it does is cry and cry" rather than maybe worrying about what may be wrong with the baby!

Children and babies just get in the way don't they? We have them, force them to be as independent as possible from a stupidly young age and then lament the baby years and exclaim "Oh they grow up so fast" and then have another one.

I've travelled a fair bit and many other countries have a much healthier attitude to family life. I was in Beijing recently and children are actively encouraged to participate in society. Nobody "needs a break from the kids" as they are part of recreation time. It was quite impressive to see.

stargirl Puts it very well.

And gingerpickles your new neighbours sound lovely!

I sat with some colleagues yesterday and one started bemoaning his sister for picking up her baby when it cried

This!! Or as mumsnet refers to it 'jumping at every whimper'

@LadyOdd Spain may be nice to children but a lot of Spanish are absolutely awful to dogs - dumping them, drowning them, chopping feet off and hanging them.. plus the awful dog pounds (pererras).

The fact that we tend to put ‘nice to kids’ and ‘nice to dogs’ in a similar sort of category is a good indication of how we culturally think about children.

*Yes it's anti here.

Children's clothing departments not on ground floor of stores*

This comment sums up the culture. That is an inconvenience to YOU. Not your child. Have children's clothing on a ground floor does not make a society child friendly!

I have been made welcome absolutely everywhere in England for thirteen years and counting.

Little old ladies coo at my babies at the check out, there is a huge range of things to do that are completely free, and so much to do for children these days. Most restaurants offer childrens' menus, pencils and colouring in books etc. It is amazing place to grow up

It USED to be less tolerant but now children are seen and heard everywhere!

Why on earth should children be catered for more than adults, you can easily get children upstairs to their department when elderly people struggle to do stairs they should be catered for first! Lots of people don’t have young children therefore we shouldn’t change everyone's habits just for young children

@graphista how did you react when the woman said that to you when you were breastfeeding? I’m currently pregnant with my first and rude, snarky attitudes to BFing in public is something that worries me!

All department stores will have a lift otherwise it’s not accessible

I don’t see how taking a lift is an issue

This thread is so telling. It really proves that we as a society have no empathy for our children. The OP mentions anti-babies and children in the sense of their behaviour 'seen and not heard' etc which is representative of how people perceive the children themselves. Most of you are banging on about facilities, kids menus, spaces on a bus etc etc which are all things to make your life easier as parents! You child doesn't care if they can't find a space on a bus ffs! What you are explaining is the UKs attitude towards PARENTS... Not kids and just proves the point really that people can't seem to see things from a child's point of view!

Growing up in a family and a society where everyone thinks you're a nuisance and you are rarely listened to... where your parents are always saying they need a break from you... where you are supposed to sit still with a colouring book so the adults can interact with each other over their meal (because why should you be included?)
Where you are seen as bad if you cry etc etc can surely be fairly damaging. No wonder we are a nation of insecure adults.

Not getting the kids clothes on the groundfloor thing either.

What gets me is the attitude to teenagers and young adults. There all seen as either problems to be solved or snowflakes. Horrible

I was in Beijing recently and children are actively encouraged to participate in society. Nobody "needs a break from the kids" as they are part of recreation time. It was quite impressive to see.

What recreation involved kids in China that doesn't in the UK?

Interesting example to choose. Doesn't China have a known problem with terribly spoiled and pressured only children? A culture of heavy indulgence might be "child-centric" but isn't child-benefiting.

Doesn't China have a known problem with terribly spoiled and pressured only children? A culture of heavy indulgence might be "child-centric" but isn't child-benefiting

I wasn't aware that China had this problem?
And I certainly wouldn't say the culture was indulgent either. Just very family focused where children were seemingly treated as part of society rather than separate to it like they are in this country. I don't see that as spoiling a child.

I was in Beijing recently and children are actively encouraged to participate in society. Nobody "needs a break from the kids" as they are part of recreation time. It was quite impressive to see.

I wouldn't hold them as a good example of loving children. Just think how they abort female foetuses or abandon girl babies to orphanages, maybe less so now that they're allowed to have 2 children. Boys are valued so much more than girls.