To only now realise that Pride is very anti-women - not just anti-lesbian - but misogynistic and male-orientated

[loveyouradvice]

I had no idea....

prideinlondon.org

Of the TWELVE photos that welcome you to their website ONLY ONE is of women .... and to compound the irony that one is of Stewards, i.e. women helping Pride happen, rather than celebrating and enjoying Pride as an active participant

I am really shocked that in this day and age ANY organisation that claims to represent WOMEN AND MEN can be so foolish as to show that they don't think women are important on the first page of their website.....

The definition is shifting for a lot of people

And that is the problem. Words have meaning and those meaning needs to be kept in order to ensure that certain rights and protections are upheld.

@rosesandflowers1

I was answering the specific question you asked which was how could it not be hateful to challenge the structure.

I note you completely ignored the points I made.

I'll leave you to your bubble.

On Monday a gay man talked to me about babies being assigned the wrong gender at birth. I said that gender isn't assigned at birth, it's sex. And he told me that's wrong. So I explained that gender is just a social construct. He told me I was wrong, that you are born with a gender. Then he started talking about the hateful women at pride.

ODFOD.

But you should be protesting the people who have actually done something wrong? Not disrupting the celebrations of the NHS workers that had nothing to do with it?

Also - “took the place”

They moved the nhs group back by the space of 8 lesbians.

Pride began as a protest ffs.

The violent and abusive people who are issuing the threats.

Well yes

Violent and abusive people are getting angry and so sending abuse and threats. Saying that anger was incited was in no way minimising.

“The definition is shifting” isn’t good enough. That’s not what is happening- the definition is being taken. It is deeply harmful to lesbians who are already a sidelined and oppressed minority.

Trans-inclusive lesbians continuing to identify as lesbians has meant a shift in the way people perceive lesbianism. That doesn't mean the definition is being 'taken', it means it's being opened up a little to include people and relationships who best suit the term.

Somebody calling her trans girlfriend her girlfriend, continuing to operate under the label 'lesbian', and just living her life in happiness is not "taking" the definition from you. I'm not sure if I've missed something but I don't think anybody - and that includes violent, selfish trans people - is campaigning to have lesbian relationships in which only females are involved no longer being counted under the umbrella. Then the definition would be taken.

Trans identifying people have been around for ever. It’s only very recently that transactivists have begun demanding that we, women, accept that they are literal women. That lesbians can have cocks.

Because it's possibly the first opportunity that - in the Western world - trans people are in the position to request things like that. It's not odd that with more rights and acceptance, they will begin to speak up on smaller issues affecting them.

The overwhelming majority of these transactivists are white, educated, youngish men who have recently begun identifying as trans.

Do you have stats for this?

Not in a nasty way, I've just never heard this before. I did read a very interesting study that Caucasian families might be the most accepting, which could have something to do with it.

It’s an absolute shitshow and as per usual, it’s women who are expected to move over. And lesbians, doubly so.

Trans men/boys like to be referred to as men/boys.

There are trans inclusive men.

We hear a lot more about trans women, but it doesn't mean that women are the only ones affected.

So what is it based on?

As a cis person, I'm entirely unqualified to answer. I can't tell you what it's like to be trans. You'd be better off going online and reading about trans experiences/issues than asking me.

But, it's based on some kind of psychological conviction or understanding that you are a particular gender. Just as I would not stop being a woman if I threw out all my dresses and declared eternal hatred for the colour pink, neither would a trans woman. It's not based on stereotypes.

They did not "take the place" of the NHS workers, ffs.

Do people actually understand the concept of "protest"?

I find the hijacking of the NHS workers deeply distasteful.

"They are insisting that being trans means you fit the stereotypes of the opposite sex"

Well of course it does. What else?
If everyone wore pink dresses, make-up and took cooking lessons starting tomorrow how would someone know they were trans at all?

"The idea of "lesbian" has shifted for many people" only for people who don't own a dictionary.

I'm not sure if I've missed something but I don't think anybody - and that includes violent, selfish trans people - is campaigning to have lesbian relationships in which only females are involved no longer being counted under the umbrella. Then the definition would be taken

No, but people sure as hell are campaigning for people with penises to be included in the definition. Which renders the definition completely useless

Rose - do you believe trans identifying men can have periods?

I was answering the specific question you asked which was how could it not be hateful to challenge the structure.

I asked the question 'how can it not be hateful to try and have another group removed from the acronym'. If I'm not mistaken, that's what you answered.

But it is hateful. Point blank. You're living in a bubble if you can't understand that.

and that is the problem. Words have meaning and those meaning needs to be kept in order to ensure that certain rights and protections are upheld.

Words have no inherent meaning and, as such, it inevitably changes over time.

We have to apply new policies or understanding, to keep people safe if the words are really capable of having an impact. Not fruitlessly cling to the old definitions to try and obstruct change.

It's how life works.

And regarding your other comment, do you think these women really took priority over the NHS workers - to such a degree that they couldn't march in the designated space?

From the Pride statement:

They demanded to march behind the rainbow flag, which marks the official start of our parade. We did not allow that as we did not want to legitimise them or their message.

We moved them to an area far in front of the official parade start to separate them.

So no, they didn't take the place of the NHS workers.

What word can female homosexuals use for themselves now that 'lesbian' has been taken by a group of people (some of whom have penises) who are attracted to people (some of whom have penises)?

loveyouradvice thanks for the tip about the flag. As you say they were sent across it to get past it. I knew 'trampling' had to be a lie.

Many other people were walking on it including the Pink News reporter.

do you believe trans identifying men can have periods?

Of course they can.

No, but people sure as hell are campaigning for people with penises to be included in the definition. Which renders the definition completely useless

Does it?

'A lesbian is a women solely attracted to other women.' With the optional add-on of 'some are attracted to both trans and cis gender women, others are not' if you want to be more specific.

If everyone wore pink dresses, make-up and took cooking lessons starting tomorrow how would someone know they were trans at all?

You sound like you are having a fundamental misunderstanding.

If by 'someone' you mean onlookers, then people knowing you are trans is not what makes you trans. That's why people have to come out before they are trans openly.

If by 'someone' you mean a trans person, as I said, you don't know you're trans based on which stereotypes you fit best into. It's an understanding of your gender identity with no definers applied. Trans women don't cease being trans women based on how they dress, or their hobbies or interests, just as cis gender women don't cease being women either.

The Pink News report was on it at one point I think...

do you believe trans identifying men can have periods? Of course they can

You believe that men who identify as trans can have periods. Really?

@PencilsInSpace

Scroll down.

“It’s disappointing that anti-trans activists decided to hijack the front of a parade, an insult to all the hardworking staff in the NHS whose place they stole.”

It's right there on the page. It's just down lower.

You believe that men who identify as trans can have periods. Really?

A trans man is someone who has a vagina but identifies as a man.

When you say 'trans identifying man', do you mean something different?

rosesandflowers1 people are identifying as what they think women are. And what they think women are is 'girlies with titties in pink dresses'

There is no gender identity without the stereotypes. There is biology and there is personality.

I think it is very significant that there does not seem to be a campaign to broaden the meaning of gay man to include trans men. Gay men are, in my experience, much more open about their lack of desire for vaginas......

rosesandflowers1 that wasn't part of the pride statement, but a comment from a member of TransPALS

Unfortunately, @LaatTrainEast, that is where many would differ.

Lots of people have a gender identity. They don't just have a vagina, they identify as a woman. I know that if somehow I woke up in a male body, I would still believe myself to be a woman. Lots of other people too.

So when trans people say they're trans, they don't mean they just really like baking or pink or football and blue. They mean that somehow their gender identity doesn't correlate to their sex. And you can't disprove someone else's gender, because you can't experience it. Until we can, there is no reason that your experience of gender is more valid than theirs, or mine, or anybody else's.

Again, I'm really not the best person to talk to about this. I can't tell you what it's like to be trans as a cis woman, I really don't know.

Anyone wanting to understand why the protest is described as transphobic wouldn't do well to read the text of the leaflet they were handing about. A lot of their defenders seem to think it's all about the banners, or being misquoted, but I'm not convinced.

If you can't find the leaflet I think there are pictures of it on various websites, and the original images are on the group's own website.

It's got some stuff in it that's really horrible posts from twitter trolls, which is used to justify the protest I think. But the page that's really explainsthe anti trans description is the one where they accuse LGBTQ politics and trans activists of encouraging people to force lesbian to had sex with men.

And the way it's written is horribly obviously transphobic to lots of readers. Maybe they didn't mean it that way. Not sure.

Really hurtful to lots of people to have that handed out in the way round. Grim as fuck, and no wonder they weren't welcomed into the parade.

Inclusive pride, all the way!

Oh, and I see lots of pics including women of the pride website and parade pics. Lots of yummy lovey women doing their prideful thing without alienating or pissing on anyone else's fireworks.

To be fair there were other people standing on the flag, and I don't doubt it took courage to do it. Still don't like it though, and wish the organisers had been able to figure out a way to get them to fuck off to the far side of fuck peacefully. Properly ruined the day for lots of people having that leaflet stuck into their hands on that parade. Eeeeeeewwwwww!

Bloody loving the line of defence that they were just peaceful middle aged women protecting lesbians and anyone who criticise them is hating women or thinks they should be ladylike and quiet. Feck off and learn to take criticism on the chin. Beign female doesn't exempt you from beign called a twat for raining on the pride parade.

Trans men of the appropriate age have periods unless they have had gender redefining surgery.. Trans women don't, even if they have.

I'm sorry, did I just read a PP say that Pride has nothing to with lesbians and white gay men? Wtaf?

I cannot wait until they tell the gay men that!!! Many of them will happily let lesbians be thrown under the bus but will have a fit if they are asked to move over one inch.

It reminds of the gay guy who acted as the "terf blocker" on Twitter. He was perfectly happy to support people who harassed lesbians and other women, co-opting our identities and dismissing our experiences. Then one transactivist said that gay men had privilege and he went rogue and destroyed the entire thing!

I wonder why Pride is nothing to do with all lesbians but only white gay men? Is it because they think all lesbians are so privileged (and so meanly exclusive of penises) that black lesbians can't be included while black gay men can?