To only now realise that Pride is very anti-women - not just anti-lesbian - but misogynistic and male-orientated

[loveyouradvice]

I had no idea....

prideinlondon.org

Of the TWELVE photos that welcome you to their website ONLY ONE is of women .... and to compound the irony that one is of Stewards, i.e. women helping Pride happen, rather than celebrating and enjoying Pride as an active participant

I am really shocked that in this day and age ANY organisation that claims to represent WOMEN AND MEN can be so foolish as to show that they don't think women are important on the first page of their website.....

that wasn't part of the pride statement, but a comment from a member of TransPALS

Yes. Copied and pasted into the Pride Statement as comments they agree with.

Trans identifying men. Men who identify as trans.

Trans identifying men is on the Mumsnet banned list.

rosesandflowers1 I know they say they "identify as a woman" but that is meaningless on it's own.

We know what a biological woman is and obviously no one can identify with that.

If a man has feelings, ambitions or mannerisms that he says are 'feminine' then there are two problems with that.

#1 biological women don't share those feelings as a default (some may)

#2 the very fact that a men feels them is proof they are not linked to being a woman at all, but can be experienced by anyone.

I support the right of trans people to embrace the feelings, ambitions or mannerisms that make them happier. This is a human right. It just doesn't change anyone's sex.

Trans identifying men. Men who identify as trans.

So, people with vaginas who identify as trans men, or people with penises who identify as trans women?

I support the right of trans people to embrace the feelings, ambitions or mannerisms that make them happier. This is a human right. It just doesn't change anyone's sex.

It's not feelings, mannerisms or ambitions though. It has nothing to do with gender stereotypes. It's just some kind of understanding that you are not the gender your sex is traditionally correlated to.

They just feel like they are the opposite gender. Just as cis people of that gender don't change gender based on what they like, trans people won't.

A trans woman might like biking, work in a corporate office and have a buzz cut, just as a cis woman might. But she is still a trans woman.

A trans man might prefer to look after his children than work, wear skirts and be interested in fashion. But he is still a trans man.

This is what I seee.....

Yes Bertrand I know.

But I reject the term transwomen.

^^Same pictures I got.

So, people with vaginas who identify as trans men, or people with penises who identify as trans women?

People with penises who identify as trans.

see how complex language gets when definitions get fucked around with?

Same pictures I got.

But you described them as a "pretty even spread" of men and women.

People with penises who identify as trans.

It's not complex if you didn't "reject" terms Or specified what gender they transitioned to! "Trans" isn't helpful if you don't say which way

If you have a penis you don't menstruate, no, unless I have a complete misunderstanding of science.

But you described them as a "pretty even spread" of men and women.

I think I captioned the photos on the first page ... I'll see if I can find it.

2) The idea of "lesbian" has shifted for many people and the entire concept of a "trans-inclusive lesbian" suggests that there are lesbians attracted to date trans women. As such, trying to erase these relationships/attraction to pursue their agenda that trans women are not women doesn't just negatively impact trans women, but other lesbians.

Lesbian isn't an "idea". It's a sexual orientation, protected by law, in which females are exclusively sexually attracted to females.

A woman in a sexual relationship with a transwoman is having heterosexual sex. They may want to call it "lesbian" but it isn't. Lesbian is not up for grabs. The definition is taken. And if contraception is or could be a consideration then you're not engaged in any form of homosexual sex.

3) I think the entire thing is based on "trans women aren't real women" so yeah, transphobic.

It's not transphobic to know that transwomen are, by definition, male, rosesandflowers. Transwomen are transwomen. They're not women - who are adult human females.

Btw, your username always intrigues me. Why rosesandflowers? Because rose are flowers. Just wondering...

If you have a penis you don't menstruate, no, unless I have a complete misunderstanding of science

Ok, so science is important?

So the transactivists who claim they are women and therefore have periods?
The transactivists who claim they can breastfeed?
The transactivist who claimed that it’s transphobic to say they can’t get pregnant?

Yy to the hijacking of the place of NHS workers as parade lead. Bit of an own goal by the protesters given the surge of public support for the NHS anniversary celebrations. No wonder people are pissed off with them.

Btw re trans men's and periods, it isn't to do with surgery, but the hormones. Once a trans bloke is on testosterone therapy periods generally stop. Not always though, hence trans men sometimes have periods. I think it's a bit age related as well, like if the woman is newrish menopause at time of staring to hirmines then the periods would mor elikely stop sooner

see how complex language gets when definitions get fucked around with?
Well it's easy to get confused when you use trans identified male. Because nobody identifies as trans, they identify as a man/woman/non binary or whatever. I don't get why you reject trans woman? Its obvious that they are biologically male on MN at least and its a lot clearer that TiM.

Btw, your username always intrigues me. Why rosesandflowers? Because rose are flowers. Just wondering...

It's an old joke

A woman in a sexual relationship with a transwoman is having heterosexual sex. They may want to call it "lesbian" but it isn't. Lesbian is not up for grabs. The definition is taken. And if contraception is or could be a consideration then you're not engaged in any form of homosexual sex.

So you would insist trans-inclusive lesbians find a new identity?

Are you another pioneer of describing people as homo/hetero romantic and then bisexual?

It's not transphobic to know that transwomen are, by definition, male, rosesandflowers.

They are indeed male, but women ... I mean, like I said, it's in the name. The fact that we're calling them trans women tells us that things are changing.

So the transactivists who claim they are women and therefore have periods?
The transactivists who claim they can breastfeed?
The transactivist who claimed that it’s transphobic to say they can’t get pregnant?

Could I have some context?

Just to be clear, you do mean trans activists that have penises?

Are they saying that it's transphobic to say it will never be possible, or just currently?

"They just feel like they are the opposite gender" No one can know what the opposite gender feels like. That would require mind-reading.

They can only be basing it on what they think the opposite gender feels like.

Don't get me wrong. Someone can feel that everything about their life is wrong. They can feel out of step with everything and everyone and it can make them very unhappy. That much is very real.

They can fantasise about how they'd feel if they lived a different life. Perhaps if they were rich, famous, married, single, a fireman or a an astronaut they'd be happier. They might wonder if they would be happier if they were the other sex or if they had a different skin color or even if they were disabled. (that last is not as odd as it sounds. If you feel you're not keeping up then having a reason why might remove the pressure)

Anyone suffering from this kind of depression should get all the help we can give.

But it's doing people no favours to encourage the fantasy. You need to help them cope with with what is.

So you would insist trans-inclusive lesbians find a new identity?

If a 'trans-inclusive lesbian' has to consider contraception as part of their sexual relationship, then they are not a lesbian. If you argue otherwise then the word 'lesbian' is meaningless.

As another poster said, if the word 'lesbian' now includes women who include penis as part of their sexual relationship, then what word can be used for women who don't want penis?

Yes transactivists who have penises. Men, if you wiii.

Context:

1. no one ever talks to us trans girls about periods loooooooong Twitter thread with many sub threads. (The most recent of many similar)
2. article - pretty sure you were on a thread about it.
3. Lily Madigan “I can get pregnant. Like many women, I’m not able right now, but i can. It’s transphobic to single me out” (original statement was “I can get pregnant”)

I know that if somehow I woke up in a male body, I would still believe myself to be a woman.

Given that that will never ever ever ever happen, that statement is a load of baloney.

An article offering tips on how to have lesbian sex with a transwoman is not 'coercion' - it's advice, that anyone who reads it can either follow or ignore. There are plenty of articles on and offline giving tips on how a heterosexual woman can use a strap-on dildo to do her boyfriend up the bum - some people like to have sex like this, others aren't interested, but suggesting ways to have sex is just suggesting stuff.
If other women, who consider themselves lesbians, have sex with transwomen, it's up to them not anyone else.

That story people have mentioned (from Reddit) about a young lesbian who was attacked by a transwoman, and ostracised by her social circle for complaining - sadly this is very likely to be a true story, but it's one true story. Some people have toxic, victim-blaming friends. One story doesn't indicate a climate of terror for every lesbian, which is wholly the fault of transpeople.

And, as has been posted elsewhere, the protected characteristic of being a lesbian means that people can't fire you from your job, refuse you service in a restaurant, etc, because you are a lesbian. When it comes to not wanting to have sex with a person who has a penis, you have no more and no fewer rights than any other person - no one is allowed to touch your body without your consent.

Pride’s great - and it’s for lesbians like me. You don’t like Pride? That’s fine, don’t come. You love Pride, brill come and join in. Not everyone does have to like it, fair dos but it’s still vitally important IMHo.

No one can know what the opposite gender feels like. That would require mind-reading.

It's not that they feel like other men/women do. That doesn't make sense - men/women don't all feel the same way anyway. They feel that they, personally, have an inherent gender identity that it is not what their sex is traditionally correlated to. I don't know what that feels like. I'm not trans.

I do know that if, I try and imagine I was born with a penis and a male body, I'd feel deeply uncomfortable with it. That's the closest I can really get to understanding.

Because I won't understand, ever, it is not my place to say whether or not it is a fantasy. I have no access to experience or knowledge of someone else's gender, and, bar extreme advances in science during my lifetime or the discovery of magic, never can. To say they do not have a valid experience of gender because I cannot understand it is arrogant and cruel, particularly if I couple this belief with a denial of their rights, bigoted language or other forms of transphobia.

I cannot say something doesn't exist or isn't true because I personally can't understand or experience it.

Regardless, evidence suggests that "encouraging the fantasy" - so, allowing them to live life as the gender they understand they are - does improve life for them.