To only now realise that Pride is very anti-women - not just anti-lesbian - but misogynistic and male-orientated

[loveyouradvice]

I had no idea....

prideinlondon.org

Of the TWELVE photos that welcome you to their website ONLY ONE is of women .... and to compound the irony that one is of Stewards, i.e. women helping Pride happen, rather than celebrating and enjoying Pride as an active participant

I am really shocked that in this day and age ANY organisation that claims to represent WOMEN AND MEN can be so foolish as to show that they don't think women are important on the first page of their website.....

That group are transphobic, plain and simple. There should be no place for transphobia in Pride. There's a certain type of person who likes to be the victim...that's them.

Can someone clarify - was it the case that the protesters had registered to march and wanted to march in a different part of the parade, or that they were not registered to be part of the march at all?

That is your right, of course. If you’d had a sexual relationship with a trans identifying woman, then that suggests you are bi sexual, but I’m not esp interested in your sex life.

But I'm not bisexual.

I'm not interested in trans, nor cis gender, women. I'm attracted to people who identify as men.

I've heard the suggestion that this might make me heteroromantic, but bisexual - but I'd have to research that more. The point is, there are many people who are attracted to gender and not to sex. This doesn't mean that people can't be attracted to sex specifically, from what I've gathered lots of people are.

But that doesn't erase everyone else either.

People are not “sorting it”. Lesbians are being abused, threatened and erased if they insist that lesbian means female/female sexual attraction. That cocks have no place in lesbian relationships.

I think saying "cocks have no place in lesbian relationships" would incite anger from any cis woman dating a trans woman, two trans women dating other, a trans woman dating a cis woman, or just trans women in general. Because as a sweeping statement they're ignoring that there are plenty of relationships that would come under "lesbian", but there is a penis or two penises involved.

Anyone who says "you're discriminating" as a means of trying to coerce you into sex is an arse, no exceptions. But plenty of black men do it - it's not an excuse to oppose the Civil Rights Movement.

What misinformation was that?

1. They added a load of made up side effects to medication prescribed for trans people. They eventually deleted the list of "side effects" but still push the agenda that it has loads of secret harmful dangers, though are being a lot more vague about it.

2. They are insisting that being trans means you fit the stereotypes of the opposite sex. This isn't just them, I know, it's a common rhetoric, but it's not true.

3. Them suggesting that the LGBTQ+ community - or "GBT" as they like to say - is enforcing "conversion therapy and heterosexuality on lesbians" is batshit. A minority of trans activists maybe.

was it the case that the protesters had registered to march and wanted to march in a different part of the parade, or that they were not registered to be part of the march at all?

Apparently they weren't registered at all. The organisers were obviously unhappy for them to march, due to this and of course what the group stands for, but they were given a place in the Parade. They then forced their way to the front of it.

"That group are transphobic, plain and simple."
Explain to me why it is transphobic to say that lesbians are femLe homosexuals.

I think saying "cocks have no place in lesbian relationships" would incite anger from any cis woman dating a trans woman, two trans women dating other, a trans woman dating a cis woman, or just trans women in general. Because as a sweeping statement they're ignoring that there are plenty of relationships that would come under "lesbian", but there is a penis or two penises involved

None of those are lesbian relationships. I think you have zero knowledge of how hard lesbians have fought to be where they are. You, by casually prioritising male bodied people, are erasing lesbians. It’s about same sex attraction, ffs. Not gender.

And as for “I think that would incite anger” - you’re excusing the aggression I just described? Wow.

Also, the two trans women most closely associated with the original Pride in the US are Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P Johnson.

And while I'm prepared to be proved a bit wrong on this, I have searched Twitter for specific threats against the protesters (searched for Pride and that word to describe women opposed to trans people that we are not allowed to use on MN) and found no threats. Lots of angry posts expressing dislike of the protesters' views, and some namecalling, but not the stream of awful violent threats that might have been expected, at least according to the protesters and those who share their views.

Explain to me why it is transphobic to say that lesbians are femLe homosexuals.

1. Please don't pretend you think that's the only thing their group stands for.

2. The idea of "lesbian" has shifted for many people and the entire concept of a "trans-inclusive lesbian" suggests that there are lesbians attracted to date trans women. As such, trying to erase these relationships/attraction to pursue their agenda that trans women are not women doesn't just negatively impact trans women, but other lesbians.

3. I think the entire thing is based on "trans women aren't real women" so yeah, transphobic.

Pride was created by a black trans man who then took on the police and created a movement out of it.

I've just realised - You mean the black lesbian Stormé DeLarverie:

www.afterellen.com/general-news/561237-we-need-to-talk-about-misogyny-and-the-lgbt-communitys-erasure-of-black-lesbian-history

But, no, of course transactivism doesn't erase lesbians.

Apparently

Again, where is your primary source for this?

And the list of "fake" side effects? (Incidentally, if you think the drugs involved in transitioning and blocking puberty are side effect free then you are reading the wrong medical journals).

I see lots of repetitions of PR statements but I'd rather deal in facts/primary sources when there is so much disinformation passed around.

*None of those are lesbian relationships. I think you have zero knowledge of how hard lesbians have fought to be where they are. You, by casually prioritising male bodied people, are erasing lesbians. It’s about same sex attraction, ffs. Not gender.

The definition is shifting for a lot of people. I know lots of people would characterise a trans-inclusive lesbian as a lesbian - after all, it's in the name. As such, her relationships would be lesbian relationships.

Whether or not you agree with this, there's your answer as to why people might get angry. To be told they can't define their relationship as what suits them best - because if somebody else's belief system - will naturally cause discord.

As for "incite anger" - what do you think is causing abuse and threats? It's unacceptable of course, but I'd say anger would be the underlying feeling behind it.

I think the entire thing is based on "trans women aren't real women" so yeah, transphobic

They're not. I'm sick of this. Transwomen are transwomen. They aren't women.

Also, the two trans women most closely associated with the original Pride in the US are Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P Johnson.

For all the uproar about "misgendering" transactivists seem very willing to misgender these two self-described gay male transvestites and the aforementioned lesbian.

I find it fascinating that saying "transwomen are not women" is viewed as transphobic.... it is an extraordinarily successful bit of PR/commandeering of language and perverting it from its real meaning..

It is inaccurate...transphobia is defined as (in a similar vein to homophobia, etc) dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people

I find few feminists either dislike or are prejudiced against transgender people.... they in no way want to deny them any rights but they do not want them to demand to takeover Womens Rights which have been hard-fought for over many years

Apparently

How exactly does trying to get an entire subset of LGBTQ+ removed from the acronym not qualify as hate?

You left off A and I.

Well for a start, when members of the denoted subgroup don't want to be bundled in with the larger organisation. Intersex groups have repeatedly asked Stonewall and others to stop co-opting their experience into a very different situation.

There are also "T" people and LGB people who have long said that each would be better with separate, but mutually supporting, campaign groups. LGB is an sexual orientation and Gender Dysphoria/Trans identification is not and has very specific needs of its own.

Ironically, lesbians were at the forefront of support for transexuals (as they were termed at the time).

My cousin was one of those supporters. She runs a shoestring support line and counseling service for young and teen lesbians which has just lost its funding for being insufficiently trans inclusive.

They were not directing more masculine presenting lesbians to trans services (counseling is supposed to be non directive).

Her particular concern is for young women on the aspergers spectrum and those with body dysmorphia who will not be helped by being told they are trans but are being sent disproportionately to the Tavistock. The clinic sees far more natal women in this age group than men.

I can say a transwoman is a transwoman without behaving a phobic or unpleasant way to that person, or denying that person human rights. But a transwoman is not a woman.

Again, where is your primary source for this?

Numbers 2 and 3 are part of official statements they've made.

Having short hair and disliking pink is not a sign of having a male brain and does not mean one requires transition. The trans movement is a conservative movement which reinforces sexist sex stereotypes.”

Here they insinuate that being trans is based on stereotypes and which you fit into; like I said, false. This is directly from their statement.

The GBT community today ... is in fact enforcing heterosexuality on lesbians.

They told this to BBC. The middle bit is long but essentially it's "by allowing trans people in the parade and supporting them, they're enforcing heterosexuality on us."

And the list of "fake" side effects? (Incidentally, if you think the drugs involved in transitioning and blocking puberty are side effect free then you are reading the wrong medical journals).

I know that there are side effects. I do know that the ludicrous list that they posted was not true.

As I said, deleted, so our best hope of evidence is screenshots somehow still floating on the Web. If you fancy trawling through Twitter - or maybe Tumblr would be a better bet - you can.

what do you think is causing abuse and threats?

The violent and abusive people who are issuing the threats.

“The definition is shifting” isn’t good enough. That’s not what is happening- the definition is being taken. It is deeply harmful to lesbians who are already a sidelined and oppressed minority.

Trans identifying people have been around for ever. It’s only very recently that transactivists have begun demanding that we, women, accept that they are literal women. That lesbians can have cocks.

The overwhelming majority of these transactivists are white, educated, youngish men who have recently begun identifying as trans.

It’s an absolute shitshow and as per usual, it’s women who are expected to move over. And lesbians, doubly so.

ReanimatedSGB sorry I completely misunderstood your post

What people seem to be ignoring is that when they chose to protest, they deliberately took the place of NHS workers in the parade to be seen by more people. If you want to protest, then protest. I don't have a problem with it. But taking the place of others who have done nothing wrong to be seen by more people is a dick move.

Here they insinuate that being trans is based on stereotypes and which you fit into

So what is it based on?

@C8H10N4O2
I know that A and I are included as part of the spectrum - but the '+' sign suggests that there are other sexualities and identities that I haven't typed.

Trying to get another group - which has not organised any protest of its own to be removed - kicked out is undeniably hateful. You can't excuse it. It wasn't even like they colluded with a trans equivalent of them - that is, a small minority that wants the entire group disassociated based on their feelings - to get the 'T' removed. They campaigned for another group to be removed based on how they felt about them. It's hateful. End of story.

The video is really interesting. Thank you. Despite the Pink News commentary (hilarious in itself) it's clear that this was a small group of mild mannered muddle aged women doing nothing wrong other than not knowing their place.

Well. Done. Them.

Saying transwomen aren't women isn't transphobic,it's factual.

The definition is shifting for a lot of people.

No, the definition of "lesbian" is being forcibly shifted by a subset of lesbophobic, straight "people with penises" (if that's the only thing I'm allowed to call them) and their woke het-queer friends.

This is not lesbian sex. This is a straight autogynephile's role play fantasy of being sexually stimulated by a lesbian while pretending that they are having lesbian sex. And young lesbians in particular are being coerced into this and accused of transphobia if they won't have sex with people with penises:

www.autostraddle.com/how-to-have-trans-woman-lesbian-sex-with-a-penis-414839/

What people seem to be ignoring is that when they chose to protest, they deliberately took the place of NHS workers in the parade to be seen by more people. If you want to protest, then protest.

You don't seem to understand what a 'protest' is.