To post on trans issues in the Feminist Chat forum?

[DadJoke]

I've been posting a lot on trans issues over in feminist chat. I am keenly aware that it's primarily a women's forum, for women to discuss issues pertaining to their needs. I also know that the presence of men in women's spaces can undermine useful discussions and become "all about the men"

When I say women, I include transwomen. I know many of you don't, but that's not at all what this AIBU is about.

So, am I making a useful contribution to the debate, or undermining it?

I'm not scrolling through pages on another thread in a different part of the site. You started this thread in AIBU. So why don't you tell us here.

Dottierichardson I think gender identity is a real thing, and you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans. The precondition to be a transwoman is that you are AMAB but identify as a women. It makes no difference if you can't afford surgery, or chose not to have surgery. But I confess I am conflicted about this.

If you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans then aren't you a transvestite? Genuine question.
Be a transvestite if you want but don't shove my rights out of the way to make yourself feel better.

JacquesHammer I can only assume the use of "non-trans woman" was a deliberate attempt to be goady.

"woman" and "transwoman" serves well.

Not goady. We fundamentally disagree on the definition of woman. I don't think you are goading me by suggesting that "women" applies only to AFAB people, and it was in context. You use your definition, I'll use mine, and we can perhaps tolerate the difference. I am not willing to refer to woman and transwoman as the two categories, because I think transwoman are women, you are not willing to use the transwomen and cis or non-trans women because you think transwomen are men.

Or do you describe yourself as a "non-trans man"?

Where it's relevant, I'd describe myself as a cis man, but guidelines suggest I have to be very careful about using that word.

@multivac I'd describe myself as heterosexual.

I don't know, as I've never noticed you.

However, as an actual woman, I'm not hugely invested in the opinion of a man on what a woman is if it differs from reality. Particularly when said man can't define or defend his opinion on what a woman is and yet incomprehensibly appears to know exactly who women are when it becomes necessary to deliver his opinion to us.

And how do you define 'heterosexual'?

bellinisurge f you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans then aren't you a transvestite? Genuine question.

Be a transvestite if you want but don't shove my rights out of the way to make yourself feel better.^

What you wear makes no difference. Drag queens for example are men. Gender identity is independent of gender expression.

Oh piss off

OP keeps calling us non-trans because he is trying to "other" us,
Which is so weird when he is also trying to stop us "othering" anyone else.

And so a man with a penis can go into a women's bathroom while I am there, or my mum is, or my daughter is, because he feels like a woman. And you don't see the problem with that?

LangCleg It might seem unlikely, but I actually engaged in order to educate myself through debate, and hopefully contribute something useful or at least not disruptive.

Aaaaaaaaaaand, there you again.

You haven't contributed anything useful. Women - on FWR and AIBU - have repeatedly told you that they don't give a shit what you think.

Yet here you still are. Unwanted.

And you actually wonder why women might want single sex spaces? It's to get the fuck away from the penis and its entitlement to their attention, whatever "gender" that penis considers itself to be.

If I come back tomorrow, you'll still be here, won't you? You're like the bloke in the bar who won't take no for answer when a woman doesn't want the drink he's offering to buy.

Sexism isn’t a thing if you conflate a man with a penis with a woman. Sexism becomes impossible to define. Impossible to legislate against.
That’s essentially the entire crux of it, dude. Sex.
Sex. Sex.
Sex.
Biology.
And you refusing to shag a transwoman because she’s a man proves you DO understand biology and sex, however much woke bro waffle you spout about gender.
Why the fuck do you think feminists want the entire house if gender cards to collapse?
It’s only a meaningful category when it is used to dictate and control.
Sex segregation exists for a reason. To keep male bodied people out of spaces where women are vulnerable. This doesn’t mean we should switch to gender segregated spaces, which is what you are advocating.

Sex segregated. All men. Out of women’s spaces.

No penises. Whether they are clad in lace and silk or not. I have not a single fuck to give. No penises.

You seem to believe that the sex segregation allowed by the EA is being upheld. It isn’t. Most places are moving away from those legal provisions under extreme threats from trans activists, who are actively hounding and making legal challenges to force them to allow penises in women’s sex segregated spaces.

You can fuck off with that.

Are any of you children girls? Showering with penises at school after PE? Sleeping next to penises at school overnights and on girl guide camps? Been raped and require counselling or a women’s shelter? At the age where they require smear tests?

You won’t shag a transwoman. That tells me all I need to know. You don’t believe transwomen are women at all. It’s manly bluster for virtue cookies.

Pfft.

So you're a man campaigning for men to go into women's bathrooms, changing rooms, hospital wards, prisons, all-women shortlists and sports?

Gosh. What was the question again? Are you unreasonable for wanting to tell the women who post in FWR that's what's got to happen?

Er yeah, YABU.

What are the differences between transwomen and 'non-transwomen?

Nope Lang he like one of them bluebottles that u think u got rid off then they just turn up in another room still buzzing away

You use your definition, I'll use mine

Words mean something.

Or they fucking used to.

If I keep answering questions, which continue to be asked, this thread will do on forever, and the purpose of the thread was to determine whether I should post on these issues are all. So, at the risk of being accused of being a quitter I am off.

I'd be happy to engage privately if anyone wants to.

Bye

OP bye and BTW a man on a mainly women's forum asking women to engage privately is considered a bit creepy - because it is in fact creepy.

OP, let me help you out with the definition of ‘heterosexual’. Currently, most dictionaries state this refers to ‘a person who is sexually attracted to people of the opposite sex’ (definition 1). More groovy dictionaries describe instead ‘a person who is sexually attracted to people of the opposite gender’ (def. 2). And Wikipedia, crowdsourced and constantly updated - and therefore, arguably, the best measure of current usage - goes for ‘a person who is sexually attracted to people of the opposite sex or gender’ (def. 3).

But your insistence that ‘transwomen are women’ leaves you with a bit of a problem, doesn’t it, OP? Because if definition 1. is correct, you aren’t heterosexual, as you are a man, transwomen are women, and you are not sexually attracted to transwomen. And if definition 2 is correct, you aren’t heterosexual either, because you identify as a man, a transwoman identifies as a woman, and you are not sexually attracted to transwoman. Same applies to both categories in definition 3.

Perhaps you could consider renaming your sexuality, in order to make it explicit that, for you, when it comes to sexual intercourse, biology is real, and makes a real difference?

Or, perhaps, you need to expand your claim that 'transwomen are women' to state that 'transwomen are women, except when them being so has an impact on me'.

OP what professional qualifications and experience do you have wrt to Trans issues?

If you switch gender identity for race, you'll get a clearer idea of my position. If someone posted on twitter "I would never sleep with an Asian person" with no context, I think that would be wrong. But if you were asked in another context, you might answer.

Will you just stop conflating gender for race! They are two completely different issues.

They always Flounce... just when it’s getting fun. (Sulk.)

Oh. He's gone .

Nope Lang he like one of them bluebottles that u think u got rid off then they just turn up in another room still buzzing away

Eurgh! Will he multiply like bluebottles do, too?