To post on trans issues in the Feminist Chat forum?

[DadJoke]

I've been posting a lot on trans issues over in feminist chat. I am keenly aware that it's primarily a women's forum, for women to discuss issues pertaining to their needs. I also know that the presence of men in women's spaces can undermine useful discussions and become "all about the men"

When I say women, I include transwomen. I know many of you don't, but that's not at all what this AIBU is about.

So, am I making a useful contribution to the debate, or undermining it?

DadJoke, you say We define "woman" differently. And all your other points depend from that.

We certainly do. I define woman as an adult human female. It covers every woman ever born. So how do you define "woman"?

I should warn you that no one in all the years I've been involved in this has come up with an alternative definition that accurately defines women and TW but not men and TM.

A circular argument doesn't work. Saying a Snargle is anyone who identifies as a Snargle tells you nothing about what a Snargle is.

Give it your best shot. What's your definition? I should warn you that thinking about this may make you aware just how full of sexist assumptions and stereotypes your head is

You posted here and asked a question. And have been roundly derided for doing so.

Once again, youre telling me i have to have the drink.

I didn't realise you were in charge. Shall I get back in the kitchen and rattle the pots and pans?

How dare you.

I don't know if you are a women (by my definition) or not

Can you not see how horribly rude (at best), and abusively oppressive (at worst) this comment is, addressed to another human being?

Clearly, you want to be the Good Guy here. Please, think about it.

Well I don't know, I use "I'm not trans" to mean I don't believe I am the opposite sex. But neither do I believe I have any sort of internal gender.

So what am I then?

So how do you define "woman"?

In the case of who he'd get jiggy with, exactly the same as you.

In the case of the risks that you, as a woman, are expected to take, he's a bit more flexible. Isn't that reasonable of him?

I'm perfectly happy with "female" or "male" rather than AFAB and AMAB, though I suspect that might be considered transphobic.

EVERYTHING is transphobic, haven't you realised that yet? Stop pandering to it, it's ridiculous to deny biological sex, and it's a power kick for the many narcissists caught up in this movement.

AynRandTheObjectivist

Clearly, DadJoke does in any case share our definition of 'woman' when it comes to 'relationship purposes' or whatever that other guy said.

As I've said already, and you've clearly ignored, if I were into casual sex, I'd happily consider any women as a partner with no PIV, but for a long term partner, I would want a person who enjoyed PIV sex. If they didn't, or weren't capable of it, I would not want a long term relationship with them.

But, also, to be crystal clear, whether someone excludes people with particular protected characteristics from their dating pool is irrelevant to whether they support or believe their civil rights and identity. I don't want to have sex with men (trans or otherwise), but that doesn't mean for a moment that I don't believe they are men. I know a number of lesbians who accept transwomen as women, but are only attracted to people with vulvas - are they all liars, too?

At this point, you have chosen not to believe me that I think transwomen are women, and I don't see there is any point in engaging with you further if you think I am lying.

Here's an analogy that fits. I'm asexual. If you ask me 'are you attracted to people of the same sex?' I'll say no. What you're doing is the equivalent of then saying 'well, you're straight then' and ignoring me when I say I'm not attracted to people of the opposite sex either, because you think everyone has a sexuality and I'm just not aware enough of mine to know that I'm straight.

Nope.

I know a number of lesbians who accept transwomen as women, but are only attracted to people with vulvas - are they all liars, too?

Psssst... they don't actually think they're actual women. Like you.

Bowlofbabelfish

So sex is observed at birth. Not assigned. Do we agree on that?

Yes, actually, I do thinking about it, that's eye-opening - thank you. Observed correctly, or incorrectly. Assigned implies sex is a social construct, which I don't believe.

OP, stop ignoring my question by attempting to deflect with your obsession with PIV, as if that is the only thing a man and a woman can do together, and babbling on about civil rights as if anyone on this thread thinks that trans people shouldn't have them.

Would you kiss a known, intact transwoman, feel her breasts, and allow her to use her mouth and hands on your penis? Yes or no? If not, why not?

If you started a relationship with a woman, fell deeply in love and then discovered that you could never have PIV because of some injury she had sustained (but could do anything else with her), would you end that relationship? Yes or no? If not, why not?

Observed correctly, or incorrectly.

How can it be observed incorrectly? The infant is examined. If there is any doubt, there is a mechanism to delay reporting until genetic and physical testing is completed.

Under what circumstances do you believe sex is incorrectly observed at birth?

I don't know if you are a women (by my definition) or not

Can you not see how horribly rude (at best), and abusively oppressive (at worst) this comment is, addressed to another human being?

^please don't ignore this question, OP. Neither of us knows the sex of the poster to whom you are talking here. But to tell them that they are only a woman (or man) if they meet YOUR conditions for being one (i.e. accept a gender identity).... it's shocking.

Yes, actually, I do thinking about it, that's eye-opening - thank you.

Funniest sentence all day! Realising you believe in biological sex is "eye opening" to some.

Hi there @dadjoke could you please state how you define yourself?

if the penis is attached to a women,

There was so much wrong in every post you have made but this has been pointed out to you and although I'm not sure you 'get' what has been said I don't think it needs to be repeated. Suffice to say I agree with the women here who have handed you your arse.

I do have to say though HOW can you type the above phrase and not see the mental gymnastics it takes to believe it. And it is a belief not a reality - as you appear to be aware of if not in what you write but at least in how you feel.

Five - he defines himself as a heterosexual and everso woke cis man.

Funniest sentence all day! Realising you believe in biological sex is "eye opening" to some.

Well, this is coming from a man who, it would appear from his posts, has a sex life that consists of meeting a woman, taking off her clothes and poking his penis straight into her with absolutely no foreplay or build up. I mean, given that it's all about PIV and that is the sole reason he'd never let a trans woman touch him.

So yeah, I can well believe that's a huge revelation to him...

I don't see there is any point in engaging with you further if you think I am lying.

Maybe you aren't deliberately lying but there is considerable mental incongruence you aren't facing up to.

You won't find any gender critical feminists or lesbians who have a gender identity, DadJoke. For us, gender is the root and mechanism for our oppression as a sex class and lesbians are by definition gender non conforming. We want to eradicate gender, not reify it.

Having a gender identity that's separate from the body - which is what trans people claim - is like a religious belief in souls. It's not something for which there's any evidence outside of the claims of its adherents.

A man, espousing to women about what they should believe, what they should accept and what they should say....never going to go down well is it? Safe to say you should get back in your box OP.

Funniest sentence all day! Realising you believe in biological sex is "eye opening" to some

Ah but he says he thinks we getvit wrong sometimes.

Which is back to the way the argument changes as they realise science has a rock solid pushback. So first it was all the assigned at birth nonsense. Then ok it’s observed but sometimes it’s wrong!

It’s the same process as the argument that’s changed to now state that transwomen have always been women, just sort of unrecognised, cryptic (in a biological sense) women flying under the radar. With penises.

So now we need dadjoke to explain under what circumstances he believes sex is incorrectly observed at birth.

My money is on some waffle about intersex. Place your bets!

Okay, so - to head off in another direction - you are attracted to the general idea (as you'd include a preop transwoman?) of a woman, whether they have a vulva or not. Imagine you ran into someone apparently female bodied but with short hair and not dressed stereotypically femininely in a bar, who you were attracted to. You go home, have PIV and all is great. At which point they say they identify as male. Is the PIV sex you have just had homosexual?

Contrast that with all of the above, but they do not state they identify as male. Is that PIV heterosexual? Or maybe they just haven't disclosed their gender identity to you? How do you know?

Sorry to drag it up, but random fact, did you know that Males are about 4 times as likely as females to be born with Autism?

As in.... it primarily affects MALE BRAINS. Male brains, those brains that are incased in bodies belonging to men (XY Chromosome building blocks etc).

So I guess there must be a difference between not just the male and female bodies but their brains too right? Otherwise they would be affected equally.

But I guess diseases, disorders and the like don’t give a toss about what dillusion is going on in your brain, just the actual physical brain, same as the body. I can think I am a man all I want, doesn’t mean I am suddenly going to get haemophilia or prostate cancer.

Btw, can I just add - I hope it is not your intention - but to say you would have casual sex with a preop transwoman but not a relationship as you like vulvas, looks very much like "any hole's a goal" from here... 😬