To post on trans issues in the Feminist Chat forum?

[DadJoke]

I've been posting a lot on trans issues over in feminist chat. I am keenly aware that it's primarily a women's forum, for women to discuss issues pertaining to their needs. I also know that the presence of men in women's spaces can undermine useful discussions and become "all about the men"

When I say women, I include transwomen. I know many of you don't, but that's not at all what this AIBU is about.

So, am I making a useful contribution to the debate, or undermining it?

As I said to you on another thread, DadJoke I don't generally feel inclined to let nonsense or hypocrisy go unchallenged.

Because you do not consider trans women to be women when it doesn't suit your interests.

This. Wriggle all you want, no one is buying it.

you have absolutely no right to barge into a female space and start telling women why they're wrong for wanting to set their own boundaries on the matter. Especially when we're concerned about predatory men and our own safety, and you're just horrified of doing something that you imagine to be gay.

YY.

Your gender identity matches your body, so you don’t really notice it. So, according to me, you are not trans. Transgender people notice the mismatch.

Oh, I as a woman am acutely aware of the mismatch. I bristle and itch at the thought of the pressure and expectation I feel to shave my legs, wear complexly applied make up, have a 10 stage Korean skincare regime, have to think carefully about how to get home after a night out, jumping out of my skin when beeped at 11.30 at night walking home, as a kid to not get muddy and act as a demure young lady, not being taken seriously by doctors for gynaecological conditions etc etc.

I fucking well do have a mismatch between my sex and gender. Gender is a yoke constricting me from the outside. I wish to be solely recognised by my sex. I do not have any internal sense of gender identity. I can identify myself as a woman, but I do not identify as a woman. I cannot - mother nature got in there first and determined that at conception.

By designating public bathrooms, leisure centre changing areas, prisons, refuges, sports etc by gender as opposed to sex, it leaves me no space, as I do not have a gender identity. I am either erased from participation in public (eg not going to leisure centres any more), or forced to take on a gender identity that is not mine and I bristle against.

To anyone who objects to me posting on this thread - please by all means stop reading, stop posting, and don't waste any more of your valuable time on this.

What? The whole point of this thread was you asking us if we thought you were adding anything to the debate. Most of us have said no, you're just the same old garden variety 'watch me while I mansplain to all the wimminz about trans people but eurgh no way am I getting jiggy with a trans woman, what do you think I am, gay or something' dolt that we see a bajillion times a day.

You guys must be absolutely creaming yourselves over this one. You get to correct and mansplain and patronise women all day, all under the guise of being progressive and liberal and at absolutely no cost to your own rights. I'm surprised it took you this long to think of it.

You asked us a question. The correct response is to answer it, not to leave you alone when you don't like the answers.

@Prawnofthepatriachy

You really don't get it do you, DadJoke? I, and everyone I've asked, do not have a gender identity that's separate from our sexed bodies. If my brain had been created in a jar I wouldn't be female. If I'd been born a boy I would still be me and a man.

I think I do get your argument. My view differs from yours. We define "woman" differently. Even our differing defintions offend you, so it's pretty hard to talk about without causing offense.

My view: everyone has a gender identity. If there is no mismatch you are trans, if not, you aren't. That's by defintiion. To find out what gender identity is, you don't ask them "do you have a gender identity?" you ask them is there a mismatch between their personal identity and their body.

Your view: gender identity is not innate, and there are people who believe they are the wrong sex, and people who don''t. Some of those people who don't lie about it, the rest are delusional. If I've summarised this incorrectly, please feel free to correct me.

In the weird case that you had no body, there would be no mismatch, because there would be no body to mismatch. But while we are on wild hypotheticals, I think if your brain was moved into a male body, you would experience a mismatch, and would be trans. I suppose it's possible you might not.

@SPOFS - Op, what does a trans woman have in common with a natal woman, that they both do not have in common with a natal man? Just one thing will do.

That’s not hard; they both identify as women. I know that won’t satisfy you so. They both experience gender-based oppression. So, they will be talked over, paid less money, and generally be patronised by men

Women do not identify as women. They ARE women.

Women experience sex based oppression.

What evidence have you got that trans women are talked over, paid less money, and generally be patronised by men in any way?

We define "woman" differently. Even our differing defintions offend you, so it's pretty hard to talk about without causing offense.

You see, ladies? OP is just so calm and reasonable! It's not his fault that we can't listen to the billionth man spouting this total bullshit, which is actually potentially harmful to us and erases us as a class, without getting all 'offended' and reaching for our smelling salts!

Don't you realise that this is why we need men like him to explain to us why we're wrong all the time? It's because we're not capable of getting all offended when we keep meeting this guy and having to endure his dangerous bullcrap over and over and over again!

We define "woman" differently.

No we don't - not when it comes to who you would have sex with.

My view: everyone has a gender identity. If there is no mismatch you are trans, if not, you aren't. That's by defintiion. To find out what gender identity is, you don't ask them "do you have a gender identity?" you ask them is there a mismatch between their personal identity and their body.

You are tying yourself in knots - you say that everyone has a gender identity but to find out if they have one, you can't now ask them as you have now changed that to 'personal' identity???

Bloody Descartes and his cartesian dualism

The mind cannot be separate from the body... it is contained wholly within the body. We are whole, not disparate entities. The body is part of the mind and the mind is part of the body.

*Women do not identify as women. They ARE women.

Women experience sex based oppression.

What evidence have you got that trans women are talked over, paid less money, and generally be patronised by men in any way?*

Absolutely this.

Very easy to be right on and say “transwoman are women” when it actually affects you in no way.

I don’t identify as a woman. I am a woman. I have a vulva. I have birthed a child. I have complications no man or transwoman could ever have. I don’t need to be a sub-set thanks

On the body mismatch... I am autistic, I do not feel "comfortable in my own skin". In fact, I feel considerable, constant, discomfort. I'm not trans though.

Am I a woman?

I'm still interested in how sex is assigned at birth dadjoke

what's being observed at the 20 week scan?

I am agog

@TellsEveryoneRealFacts

What evidence have you got that trans women are talked over, paid less money, and generally be patronised by men in any way?

Evidence here.

This is just anecdotal, but here is a transman discussing the privilege he has experienced since transition.

Also, related, are you concerned with the rise in autistic girls (who, at least a large chunk of, likely feel the same as I do because they are autistic not because they are trans) who are getting referred to gender clinics?

Clearly, DadJoke does in any case share our definition of 'woman' when it comes to 'relationship purposes' or whatever that other guy said.

It's a very good user name, actually. I'm sure we've all seen that situation where someone says something that they obviously think is very original and clever and must be shared, but everyone listening knows how cringeworthy and embarrassing it is, largely because they've heard it ten jillion times before....

A celibate person has a sexuality. It’s innate, not measurable, not quantifiable, but I’d argue it’s not a belief, but something innate. “Identify as” is such a terrible phrase as it implies a choice. I wish there was a better form of words which doesn’t imply that.

No that’s sexual orientation.

we define ‘woman’ differently

There is just the one definition. As used by Science. You can define anything you like however you like, knock yourself out, however don’t expect the rest of the world to accept your definitions. If you start to force your definitions on other people expect pushback.

You won’t sleep with a transwoman. That says it all. You do not see transwomen as women either, because if you did, you’d be willing to sleep with them.

The pay cheque link is about the male/female pay gap. It is hardly surprising that a person who lives as a woman, whatever their sex, suffers that same sexism. That is not a trans issue. It is a feminist issue. But we can't have anything de-railing from the non-vulvas...

Only about 18% of straight men will consider transwomen as sexual partners

Ermmm, exactly 0% of straight men will consider a trans woman as a sexual partner.

I hate this sort of bullshit. There is nothing wrong with being gay, why is it being whitewashed like this?

No straight man is having sex with another man, doesn’t matter what operations they’ve had or what clothes they wear. They know they are still sleeping with a man.

It makes me very uncomfortable that the very definition of being gay is being distorted like this. You can’t protect or properly support a group of people you can’t define (women, gay etc.)

Ermmm, exactly 0% of straight men will consider a trans woman as a sexual partner.

Well, there was semi-spoiler Stephen Rea in The Crying Game. But somehow, OP, I don't think you're him.

BeyondRadicalisationPortal

On the body mismatch... I am autistic, I do not feel "comfortable in my own skin". In fact, I feel considerable, constant, discomfort. I'm not trans though.

Hi, thank you so much for engaging. I don't know in what way you are uncomfortable with your body, but I think you have answered your own question. You are not trans. I don't know if you are male or female, so I don't know if you are a women (by my definition) or not. Only you can answer that.

My view: everyone has a gender identity. If there is no mismatch you are trans

Mismatch with what?

ReluctantCamper

I'm still interested in how sex is assigned at birth dadjoke

what's being observed at the 20 week scan?

I am agog

I am not sure if you are taking the piss. A doctor generally looks at the babies genitals to identify their sex. Usually they are correct when it comes to sex. It's way to early to determine gender.

I'm perfectly happy with "female" or "male" rather than AFAB and AMAB, though I suspect that might be considered transphobic.

I'm cool with people having gender identities, don't know what it has to do with sex though.

Your gender identity matches your body, so you don’t really notice it. So, according to me, you are not trans. Transgender people notice the mismatch.

Thank you for answering. However, I have clearly stated that I do not have a gender identity. The only way I experience 'gender' is as a source of oppression. I do not identify with it in any way. I do not identify with it in a way which matches my body.

It isn't quite fair that I'm expected to believe that people have an experience of gender identity that doesn't match their body, because they say this is what they experience. But when I say that I don't have one at all, the answer is pretty much: yes you do, I know better than you.

A doctor generally looks at the babies genitals to identify their sex. Usually they are correct when it comes to sex. It's way to early to determine gender.

So sex is observed at birth. Not assigned. Do we agree on that?