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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To post on trans issues in the Feminist Chat forum?

654 replies

DadJoke · 11/07/2018 11:50

I've been posting a lot on trans issues over in feminist chat. I am keenly aware that it's primarily a women's forum, for women to discuss issues pertaining to their needs. I also know that the presence of men in women's spaces can undermine useful discussions and become "all about the men"

When I say women, I include transwomen. I know many of you don't, but that's not at all what this AIBU is about.

So, am I making a useful contribution to the debate, or undermining it?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
lottiegarbanzo · 12/07/2018 10:48

Wow, out-of-his depth guy really kept it going. Sad for him that talking and listening (as an intention and state of mind, as well as an act) are usually mutually exclusive. He could learn a lot about women's experiences, perspectives and feminist analysis on FWR if he chose to do so.

But what I just wanted to say was @DN4GeekinDerby that is really interesting, thank you for posting.

I completely agree that a feminist discussion about trans issues is a very specific sub-set of discussions about trans-related issues, pertaining to women, their experience, perspective and the possible effect such a thing might have upon them. Anything about other aspects of the topic should indeed be in a different forum or sub-forum and, anyone not wishing to take part in a discussion from a feminist perspective, would stay out of FWR if they were polite.

'Here's a discussion about topic x, I know something about topic x so I'm going to say it' is such a conversation-derailer, in all aspects of life and something most of us grow out of as we develop social skills.

UpstartCrow · 12/07/2018 10:52

Pompoko
Who else has noticed that the op clearly priorities men.

That's why fake woke men like to be able to say 'trans women are women'. It means they can exclude trans women from men's spaces under the guise of being woke. They also get to have a go at non compliant women.
Its an MRA's wet dream.

Pompoko · 12/07/2018 11:07

I don’t think men realise that feminism stared at a time when women had all the rights of a lamp.
Every law to protect women had to be fought for. We are still fighting for full protection today.

Women’s aid and women’s shelters where set up VOLUNTERLY by women to protect women when no one else would.

Trans people want to use women’s bathrooms because they know men are dangerous but can’t empathise that that is the same reason why we don’t want penises in there. Lady dick is still a dick. A threat.

If trans people want to be taken seriously they need to put the leg work into protecting themselves. Set up there own safe spaces not push into hard won places for vulnerable women.

Trans people have there own difficulties that are not the responsibility of women to take care of.

If you care about trans people, do something for them not bully women to do it for you.

Trans women are trans women. End of.
Biology sets the rules not feeling.

KimCheesePickle · 12/07/2018 11:48

Transwomen are tranwomen. (gender)

Women are women. (sex)

To say that transwomen are women IS to conflate sex and gender. When you conflate and muddy two distinct categories, you get ill thought out laws, policies and public discourse.

Sex and gender are DIFFERENT. It is not possible to change one's sex, either by surgery & hormones or magical thinking.

I support rights for trans people based on GENDER ID as a protected characteristic.

I support rights for females based SEX as a protected characteristic.

Distinct. Separate. Individual. Discrete. Non-identical. Unrelated. Unconnected. Unassociated. Independent. Disparate.

Feminists want to break the link between femaleness and femininity, sex and gender.

Gender ideologists want to conflate and strenghten the link between the two.

This pushes women deeper into oppressive stereotypes, roles, expectations and denial of personal autonomy.

As a feminist I want liberation, not subjugation.

Mumminmum · 12/07/2018 12:18

YABU
A) for posting here and having a sense of unfounded entitlement.
B) for writing " I respect your views" when that is clearly a lie.
C) for calling women "non-trans". Calling women "non-trans" or "cis-woman" is almost as offensive as calling a black person the N-word.
D) for pretending not to know that 40% of trans-women are in prison for sexualt assualt even though it has been mentioned often on the feminist chat (on threads you have followed) with citations and links.
YABU

DadJoke · 12/07/2018 12:25

Answers as promised. I'll address any questions and read any other posts without comment.

@GardenGeek
You want to support trans rights. Go into trans rights arena and see how much you agree. You tell them your stance on gender ID.

You might be back on our side spouting about sparkly heels by the end of the week haha. But you will probably be reasoned about it and if so come back and proclaim your allegiance politely
If you want to go to the front line. Its twitter.

I think this is completely fair. Transgender people in person have discussed stuff with me, but I’ve not engaged with transactivists online. I think twitter is a terrible venue for nuanced discussion – I’ll try to find another suitable venue. One thing I have learned here is that I am much closer to the GC position than I thought.

@MaterialReality
There are some people whose gender identity doesn't match the sex they were assigned at birth. These are transgender people.
OP, my sex is female. I do not have a gender identity. Does that mean I'm transgender according to you?
Your gender identity matches your body, so you don’t really notice it. So, according to me, you are not trans. Transgender people notice the mismatch.

@AynRandTheObjectivist
YES WE GET IT OP. YOU WON'T SLEEP WITH TRANSWOMEN BECAUSE YOU DON'T BELIEVE THEM TO BE WOMEN WHEN IT DOESN'T SIT WITH YOUR DESIRES. WE GET IT.

And to add: I bet anything you would have sexual contact with a woman who, for medical reasons, could not have PIV sex (say, vaginismus). You might find it frustrating but on no level would you think it was the same as sex with a transwoman.
I believe transwomen to be women. You can simply not believe me, but I’m not a telepath, so there isn’t really any other way to persuade you.
In a long term sexual partner I’d like someone who enjoyed and was capable of PIV sex. If I was into casual sex now, and just wanted some non-PIV fun, I’d happily consider any women I was attracted to (trans or otherwise) as a partner.

@NoNotheresnolyrics what if they have a neo virgina?
I really didn’t know much about them. I am honestly not sure.

@Prestonsflowers
It was the op who posted a very articulate and measured opening post on their own thread.

I read your comments and I thought then that you were incredibly rude, dismissive, and insulting.

After reading your posts here, I think I was right
You might well be. The OP, who I was addressing, was happy with my contribution, if that makes any difference. Maybe they were being polite.

OP posts:
DadJoke · 12/07/2018 12:26

@Bowlofbabelfish

An innate sense is a belief.

An innate sense cannot be measured, or quantified. It cannot be seen, smelt, heard, touched or interacted with by any measuring instrument other than whatever the nebulous thing we call our consciousness is.

Your position is faith based, and roughly akin to a belief in souls. Lots of people believe in souls and if you do thats fine - religious belief is one of the protected categories under the EA after all.

Along with sex. which is objective and quantifiable.
I’ll use an analogies to help here. A celibate person has a sexuality. It’s innate, not measurable, not quantifiable, but I’d argue it’s not a belief, but something innate. “Identify as” is such a terrible phrase as it implies a choice. I wish there was a better form of words which doesn’t imply that.

@RabbitsAreTasty
What do you feel the feminist boards have taught you? Which of your opinions have been overturned or modified as a result of observing discussions between women?
I came here as a result of the amazing #ManFriday campaign. I was impressed with professionalism, humour and the media footprint it generated, and that is highlighted the issue of sex segregation so thoroughly.
I’ve learned a lot about GRA, the EA and Self-ID in particular, I have a much clearer idea of why GC feminists object to transwomen being classified as women, (both philosophically and for practical reasons). I’ve understood that privacy is paramount but in many cases not sufficient, and that a large number of GC women believe they can reliably determine the sex of any individual. I learned that there are a range of views on whether transwomen can be accepted into women’s spaces, from never to “it’s OK if they don’t have a penis”. I’ve also been reminded that the personal is political, and that using an evidence-based approach to address issues simply doesn’t wash with people whose personal experiences conflict with the evidence. I’ve learned it’s incredibly difficult to discuss issues when each side finds the other side’s definitions not just wrong but personally offensive. If I use cisgender, then it upsets GC women, and if I say sex and gender are real and different, I apparently upset transgender people.

The main view of mine that have been modified, are that I am much closer to the GC position than I thought, and that I am more inclined towards sex segregation in certain arenas. My main goal was to see if there was anything practical I could do, including throwing money at a lobby group, to improve the EA and support a nuanced approach. I am open to suggestion on that.

OP posts:
DadJoke · 12/07/2018 12:27

@DN4GeekinDerb
Bit long but so many thing. DadJoke The technical word for your 'like' is probably gynephillic though a female on synthetic testosterone, even without surgery (of any identity - not every dysphoric female on T identifies as trans man or even as trans), does often have changes to the vulva that not every gynephillic person likes - smell, texture, size, and so on. I personally don't mind but I know others who find the changes offputting. Neovaginas/vulvas are an entirely different thing particularly on a male (some females with certain DSDs have them as well).

Thank you so much – I really appreciate the time you’ve taken to post here, the fact you’ve been willing to share your experience and it’s great to hear directly from someone who is dysphoric.

I did not know gynephillic – that’s a useful word. I’m not attracted to transmen, vulva or not, and I don’t really know much about neo vaginas. I have no idea whether I’d like them or not

Even saying you 'like vulva' can be turned complicated but for 95%+ people just saying you're a straight man will be far more understandable without your defining people you're attracted to by their genitals when there are dozens of other sex characteristics that play quite a big role in human attraction before getting seeing genitals. That's why most of us can tell who we're attracted to with their clothes on and using hormones.

I agree – in a normal context, I’d just say I am straight or heterosexual, but I was asked directly if I would consider a transwoman as a sexual partner, which required this discussion.

So a more nuanced response to that is that I like PIV sex, so having a vulva is a necessary but not sufficient condition for me in a long-term sexual partner, but also, if a person with a vulva was didn’t enjoy PIV, or was unable to have it, I would not consider them as a partner because of the mismatch, even if I was attracted to them.

Also, as a dysphoric person, let me say how much I hate when people think calling me a person with a vulva is somehow better for us. I mean, seriously, it's dehumanizing in any case but using it for people who are distressed by our sexed characteristics seems a particular asshole move. Like, great, thanks for seeing and defining me by one of things about myself I often hate and try to ignore. I'd far rather just be called female if my sex is relevant. Female and male have a meaning for millions of species of animals and plants, they can keep working for humans. There are times I don't like and even despise people can see it, but that doesn't change that anymore than my hating that people being able to hear I have an American accent changes my nationality or how I talk.

Fair enough. I haven’t ever referred to people’s genitals or sex except in the direct context of being asked about my sexual preferences. I have a good friend who identifies as non-binary, and they are deeply distressed by their sex organs, and feel betrayed by them, although they don’t feel that they are “the wrong” sex organs. It’s not a topic I would ever raise with them. I think sex is a real thing, and gender is a real thing, but in the usual course of human interaction, it’s gender that is important. Questioning people about their sex or genitals are usually very rude.

Trans issues are not intrinsically a feminist issue. Even under intersectionality, not everything can be shoehorned in. Feminism, in the dozens of branches which disagree on many of the details and solutions, is about focusing and resolving the issues of those who are female regardless of their gender identity. Trans women and other dysphoric males have many important issues to deal with, but they aren't feminist issues. They're trans/dysphoria issues which deserve attention in their own right. Some people focus on one or the other or on other things. Few people can focus on everything. This idea that we can make every issue a feminist issue and push feminists to deal and talk on it is unhelpful, I think.

Thank you. I think the very heated conflict between GC feminists and TRAs overshadows these important issues.

Now, some trans issues are also feminist issues. The issue with the sharp rise of female kids being referred to gender clinics, the damage encouraging binders is having on female bodies, the lack of research of testosterone on the female body, the issue with trans men who register at their doctor's as male not getting appropriate invited to appropriate cancer screenings because the computers don't yet have space for both sex and gender identity, questioning how do we work with violence stats if we register them by gender identity and not sex... Some people think that's silly but I was discussing female-perpetrated rape recently, something I am a survivor of, and I was asked if my stats included trans women. I can't answer that because I don't collect data but governments and organizations don't usually collect both gender identity and sex information so it's possible. It's hard enough to get people to take female rapists seriously (see what happened with the recent machete rapist case, so many people still saying "you can't rape the willing" when she had a machete) without now having this as another barrier (and I'm using this both because it's personally important to me and because it's one of the few I can think of where trans people are visibly falsely blamed by the public in a way I can give evidence of).

I am so sorry to hear about your experience – I do hope your case was taken seriously.

I think that the government should collect data on the sex and gender of all NHS patients and the perpetrators and victims of crime, as that data would help everyone. If people deny sex as a category this would be impossible, and I think very dangerous.

Transgender people are such a tiny proportion of the population and rape is so prevalent, that any rape committed by or on transgender people would be barely a statistical blip, which is another reason why collecting the data is so important.

If you post unrelated stuff there to 'debate'/rile up people, YABU. That's what AIBU and chat and other places are for. Find something relevant, there are plenty of them that are reasonable for that section.

It’s quite possible I was, but not deliberately, but that ship has sailed. I think it’s best for me just to go back to lurking and learning.

And really, most of us can treat people as individuals and treat trans and other dysphoric people respectfully and want at the class/public/medical/legal level want female/male/lesbian/gay to have specific meanings so we can use the words to communicate - that's their purpose. If we use 'includes everyone who wants to' definitions, it mucks things up. That's why I tend to use dysphoric rather than trans most of the time since Stonewall UK decided crossdressers and similar were under the trans umbrella, I want to be clear I'm referring to people with gender dysphoria regardless of how we identify as to cope with it (also, not all types of gender dysphoria are innate.

I do not agree with Stonewall’s broad umbrella as I think it undermines trans rights advocacy, and that once you conflate gender expression with gender identity, the whole thing becomes meaningless. I’m really interested to hear you say not all types of gender dysphoria are innate, and would love to know more.

There are decades of research on the connection between PTSD and gender dysphoria, many of us diagnosed pre '00 (when dysphoria because it's own diagnosis rather than a symptom of several things) ended up with a PTSD diagnosis. I'm one of them. I may have a genetic predisposition, but I was not born dysphoric and as, by the US largest survey, there is strong evidence that most trans-identified people are survivors of child abuse with a horrifying 50% surviving child sex abuse, so ignoring the role trauma plays in this is to ignore an essential medical need to consider for our communities. Acknowledging that some/many/all of us aren't born this way doesn't make any part of it less valid. We can accept some people are trans even knowing all that).

Do have a reference for this research? I completely agree on acceptance – like homosexuality, it shouldn’t matter what the cause of dysphoria is for it to be taken seriously and believed.

Again, thank you so much for sharing your story and your point of view, and I wish you every joy on your journey.

OP posts:
DadJoke · 12/07/2018 12:27

@SPOFS
Op, what does a trans woman have in common with a natal woman, that they both do not have in common with a natal man?

Just one thing will do.
That’s not hard; they both identify as women. I know that won’t satisfy you so. They both experience gender-based oppression. So, they will be talked over, paid less money, and generally be patronised by men puts self-aware hat on.

@Noqont
but I enjoy PIV sex too much to consider them as sexual partners
Eh? But some transwomen have medically made vaginas. So PIV is entirely possible isn't it. Or isn't it?? What on earth is the difference dadjoke. ???
Well, I not dated for more than twenty years, and I’ve never been out with a transwomen to the best of my knowledge, so I really don’t know much about neo-vaginas. So the answer is, I have no idea. I wouldn’t dismiss it out of hand.

@Prawnofthepatriarchy
If you don't like the Swedish study, what about figures that are a lot closer to home? The campaigning group, Fair Play for Women, has established through FoI requests that at the very least

Thanks! It’s a small study based on unreliable data, though they did an extraordinary job given what they were working with. Even if we assumed that they were sex offenders (and that’s really not clear), the only thing we can really say about it is that transwomen convicted of crimes are more likely to be convicted of sex offenses. It doesn’t say anything about the prevalence of sex offenses by transwomen overall, nor does it allow for other demographic factor. I think it’s very troubling the MoJ aren’t taking this seriously, though, and in particular, I agree with this:

What we now need is for the government to prioritise collecting credible, consistent and transparent nationwide data that allows British people to see the impact of self-identification of sex on the female prison population over time
The issue for me is not that they are transwomen, but they are sex offenders, and they should not be housed with their potential victims if they pose a threat. That’s independent of whether they are men or women.

OP posts:
DadJoke · 12/07/2018 12:27

Rufustheyawningreindeer
The sad thing is
That anyone posting about this in good faith would say
'Usually i would say that transwomen are women and not differentiate but as some posters on here are angry i will refer to women and transwomen'
But nooooo transwomen and non transwomen
(I would leave it like that but feel I should clarify that the word ryhmes with hunt. I would hate for any confusion to be caused by my lack of clarity)
If you think that anyone who says transwomen are women is a c**t, that says more about you than me.
As I mentioned up-thread, whether I refer to transwomen and women or non-transwomen and women, I am going to cause offense to one side or another. So, I chose to use the definitions that I accept. That is not a lack of good faith. You think transwomen are men, I think they are women. We disagree on the definition of women – that’s absolutely fine. I jumped through hoops to avoid cis and ending up saying non-trans, which really isn’t precise at all, to avoid offense and to obey guidelines, but the lack of precision causes.

OP posts:
DadJoke · 12/07/2018 12:28

@Nappa
Morbid question OP? If someone attacked you or someone you loved and they found DNA and were looking for a man... because that was what the DNA established, but that person was living as a woman with an altered birth certificate etc, how the hell would that person get caught (providing they haven’t been caught after committing any previous crimes?).

A great question. In the vanishingly unlikely event that a person I loved was attacked by someone with XY DNA, and that person turned out to be one of the 1/200 or so transwomen, and that person has not committed a crime, and their DNA was not collected in a search as a result of an altered birth certificate, and there were no other leads linking them to crime, then I’d probably be really upset and want everyone to have their sex registered, and I would be absolutely the wrong person to make that decision. I would have no objectivity.
This Mitchell and Webb sketch explains my position
@NotMeOhNo
If you suspect that your lack of attraction to transwomen is "ingrained transphobia", do you therefore also see a lesbians' choice to reject transwomen as sexual partners as "ingrained transphobia" too?
If not, why not?
Sexuality is defined as an attraction to particular sex(es) or genders. I’ve got no idea if my sexual preference for PIV sex is rooted in transphobia or not - it might be. But no, in the general case, I don’t think rejecting sexual partners on the basis of their genitals is transphobic. And even if someone’s sexual preference excludes particular races, classes religions or sexualities, I really don’t think it’s anyone’s business to tell them they are wrong.

@ILikeyourHairyHands
DadJoke you have got yourself in a right old pickle surely?

I would pity you if you weren't such an arse.

Your predicament is hilarious though
Yes, I am in a pickle. I accept I have been an arse, and yes I can see it’s very funny.

@Aus84
Or transmen. Would you have sex with a transman?
No. I don’t want to have sex with men.
@NotMeOhNo
Also jokedad have you popped over to a trans forum to chide them for their more extremist elements? If not, why not?
I haven’t, I will.
@Germ1360
So, dadjoke is straight but only likes women with vulvas. But transwomen are women and sex is socially constructed....
How do wz make this work out...?
I don’t think sex is socially constructed at all. It’s very real. I am attracted to women as a class, including transwomen, but I like PIV sex.

OP posts:
Rufustheyawningreindeer · 12/07/2018 12:28

If you think that anyone who says transwomen are women is a ct, that says more about you than me.

Just as well i neither think nor said that

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 12/07/2018 12:29

And by the way

I absolutely accept your explanation of why you did

Shame you didn't clarify that bit earlier but hey ho

DadJoke · 12/07/2018 12:30

@Rufustheyawningreindeer

What word rhyming with "hunt" were you thinking of?

OP posts:
DadJoke · 12/07/2018 12:31

*Rufustheyawningreindeer Cross post. OK, thank you.

OP posts:
Rufustheyawningreindeer · 12/07/2018 12:31

You have misunderstood what i was saying

I do not think that people who say transwomen are women are cunts

Did not say that i did

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 12/07/2018 12:33

Oops Grin

It was the persistent way you kept saying it when women were telling you they were unhappy with it

It was persistently calling women non-trans that I believed to be 'cuntish' behaviour

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 12/07/2018 12:33

Do we understand each other a smidge better?

DadJoke · 12/07/2018 12:38

@Rufustheyawningreindeer

Yes, we do. And thank you for accepting my explanation, even if you don't agree with it.

OP posts:
Baumederose · 12/07/2018 12:40

Still doing it. Despite the now 400 plus comments.

Quite a few pp have made it very clear. A few have been clear in a very blunt fashion too.

The mansplaining male entitlement is breath taking. You said you weren't going to carry on posting. And yet here you are. Now you've started the introducing words like cunt. Another female misogunistic slur. Can you just piss off now please

The post that referenced the bloke in the bar who refuses to accept you don't want a drink bought by him is spot on. Gross

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 12/07/2018 12:42

Your gender identity matches your body, so you don’t really notice it. So, according to me, you are not trans. Transgender people notice the mismatch.

You really don't get it do you, DadJoke? I, and everyone I've asked, do not have a gender identity that's separate from our sexed bodies. If my brain had been created in a jar I wouldn't be female. If I'd been born a boy I would still be me and a man.

Ask me how I know I'm a woman and I automatically look down at my tits. Being a woman isn't an identity. It's having a female body and the experiences I've had because of my sex. There's no womanhood woo going on.

Any male who says he feels like a woman is lying or deluded. The Queen, Beyonce, me, and a woman from the Amazonian rainforest are united by our sex though we couldn't be more different in every other way. The feeling of sisterhood feminists experience is based on empathy for the penalties and risks having a female body lays us open to in what is still very much a man's world. Performing femininity is nothing like this.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 12/07/2018 12:45

Thank you dadjoke

DadJoke · 12/07/2018 13:06

To anyone who objects to me posting on this thread - please by all means stop reading, stop posting, and don't waste any more of your valuable time on this. I'll answer any questions directly I am asked and read other posts. As I promised, I won't post anywhere on the Feminist boards or discuss feminist issues here ever again.

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 12/07/2018 13:07

You really don't get it do you, DadJoke?

No, he doesn't. And he never will. He can't see that the hordes of men leaping to defend the rights wants of other males and trampling women's rights to do so isn't all that surprising. Tiresomely predictable in fact.

AynRandTheObjectivist · 12/07/2018 13:08

Stop harping on about PIV as if that's the sole measure of male heterosexuality. You would not kiss a trans woman, feel her breasts or allow her to give you a blowjob or a hand job. You'd do all those things with a woman, but not a trans woman. Because you do not consider trans women to be women when it doesn't suit your interests.

You are not obliged to have sex with trans women, but if you're going to decide for yourself when they're women and when they aren't, you have absolutely no right to barge into a female space and start telling women why they're wrong for wanting to set their own boundaries on the matter. Especially when we're concerned about predatory men and our own safety, and you're just horrified of doing something that you imagine to be gay.