To post on trans issues in the Feminist Chat forum?

[DadJoke]

I've been posting a lot on trans issues over in feminist chat. I am keenly aware that it's primarily a women's forum, for women to discuss issues pertaining to their needs. I also know that the presence of men in women's spaces can undermine useful discussions and become "all about the men"

When I say women, I include transwomen. I know many of you don't, but that's not at all what this AIBU is about.

So, am I making a useful contribution to the debate, or undermining it?

There is absolutely a difference beween non-trans and transwomen. I don't think anyone would disagree.

You are absolutely wrong on that.

Flooffloof Ok, we have that already. It's not up to you to decide where it's reasonable or proportional.

No, it's not up to me. It's up to the judiciary.

Question, if you daughter enters a sport and loses to a [redacted] how will you feel? Especially if that then prevents her getting a university place.

I think sport is a place where there is a strong argument for sex segregation. Though to be honest, my daughter is registered blind, so she has slightly more obstacles to overcome to get to university than a random transwomen beating her in a race!

And that argument neatly gets men out of making any concessions in this matter. You get to decide whether or not to sleep with transwomen - and you also get to tell women what they should do in the interest of tolerance, acceptance and human rights. Great.

You do realise, don't you, that stating that you would only sleep with people with a vulva is transphobic, transexclusionary and 'literal violence against transwomen'? You said upthread that There are very few voices on mumsnet who support the acceptance of transwomen as women. Well, you don't seem to support it either (when it doesn't suit you). But then again, as a man you'll probably get away with it.

This exactly. Great post, but they don't grasp it.

Ereshkigal There is absolutely a difference beween non-trans and transwomen. I don't think anyone would disagree.

You are absolutely wrong on that.

You are arguing that there is no difference between transwomen and non-transwomen? I'd like to hear that argument.

I do worry about that poor emperor. Unlikely to be a problem in this weather, but it must get a bit cold in winter...

By a threat, I meant a violent threat. Sports is one of those areas where the acceptance of transwomen could undermine women's sports altogether. Tell that to Ralph Knibbs.

Ereshkigal You do realise, don't you, that stating that you would only sleep with people with a vulva is transphobic, transexclusionary and 'literal violence against transwomen'?

I don't agree with this in any way, or with anyone who says this. I don't think the majority of transgender people would, despite the few loud voices to the contrary.

HemanOrSheRa Pointing at individual examples of people of a particular class committing crimes is right out of the EDL playbook. Can we stick to evidence?

So are trans women non non trans women? Why is it impossible for you to use the word "woman"?

Pointing at individual examples of people of a particular class committing crimes is right out of the EDL playbook. Can we stick to evidence? How so? I consider this AS evidence of issues with transwomen in women's sport.

You know what, OP?

I’ve been around here a long time - I have a shiny new name because of some fairly shite harassment about this exact issue actually - and what you are doing is nothing special.

You’re doing what men do, taking up more room, drawing attention to you, dismissing women’s voices. It’s what men have done since the beginning of time.

Women’s spaces, the name “woman” - not for you to mess with. You’re part of the oppressor class. What you are doing is reinforcing the dominance of men. That’s not useful and it’s not ok.

And, apart from lecturing us non non non trans women, what makes you qualified to talk about this with authority? Apart from being a non-woman.

You won’t shag a transwoman. That tells me all I need to know. You don’t believe transwomen are women at all. It’s manly bluster for virtue cookies.

YYY. What do they put in those things? So many people falling over themselves for one.

bellinisurge I only differentiate between trans and non-transwomen in context. The context here is a discussion of the definition of women. IN 99% of cases when I say "women" I am referring to females.

Biology matters for op.

But it must not matter for women.

DadJoke, of course we can stick to the evidence. Here's a link to the 30 year Swedish longitudinal study which shows that transwomen commit crime, including sex and violent crime, at the same rate as other men.

Let me remind you that men commit the overwhelming majority of sex and violent crime and ask you if that makes women's reluctance to share women only spaces with TW any more understandable.

bellinisurge I am relatively well versed in the issues, but I am not qualified.

only differentiate between trans and non-transwomen in context.

The context where it would impact on you.

Interesting.

Only when he wants to have sex.

dadjoke
If you switch gender identity for race, you'll get a clearer idea of my position. If someone posted on twitter "I would never sleep with an Asian person" with no context, I think that would be wrong. But if you were asked in another context, you might answer.

Nope!!!
That is not a comparable situation at all. I can give you 4 comparisons that hold up;

Me, a straight woman, saying I would never sleep with a woman.
A straight man saying he would never sleep with a man.
A gay man saying he would never sleep with a woman.
A lesbian saying she doesnt do dick would never sleep with a man.

Sexual orientation is a protected characteristic. Genderual orientation is made up.

For clarity I am using man & woman in the most widely accepted way of meaning of the class adult male human & of the class adult female human. cannot fucking believe I feel the need to make this point

You are arguing that there is no difference between transwomen and non-transwomen? I'd like to hear that argument.

Nice one. I think you know I didn't mean that, funny man.

DadJoke, of course we can stick to the evidence. Here's a link to the 30 year Swedish longitudinal study which shows that transwomen commit crime, including sex and violent crime, at the same rate as other men.

And, y'know, 45% of the MTT in prison are either Category A or there for sex offences. Whereas that's about 15% of the male prison population overall. MTT are as much of a risk to women and girls as any other male person.

Prawnofthepatriarchy Upthread is a link to an analysis of how that study was misinterpreted, and an interview from the researcher.

The interview is here.

I don't think the majority of transgender people would, despite the few loud voices to the contrary.

Why do they never challenge the "few loud voices" then? Why do so many of them post agreement?