To post on trans issues in the Feminist Chat forum?

[DadJoke]

I've been posting a lot on trans issues over in feminist chat. I am keenly aware that it's primarily a women's forum, for women to discuss issues pertaining to their needs. I also know that the presence of men in women's spaces can undermine useful discussions and become "all about the men"

When I say women, I include transwomen. I know many of you don't, but that's not at all what this AIBU is about.

So, am I making a useful contribution to the debate, or undermining it?

Nope - I like vulvas. People's sexual preferences are absolutely there own, nor do I expect anyone to change them to please anyone else

when I say women, I include transwomen

Both these statements can’t be true.
So which is it?

I call this “doing an Owen Jones”

Noqont the third space solution will not get past the Human Rights Act, on that basis alone it's a non-starter.

Helmetbymidnight transwomen are women but you wouldn’t have sex with a transwoman? - that’s some heterophobic bullshit there.

As I mentioned up thread, possibly ingrained transphobia, but there are lots of reasons, some of them general that I would exclude people as sexual partners. It's possible for a person to support a protected groups' civil rights, while not considering them as sexual partners.

JacquesHammer I have no problem with transmen sharing my space

Of course you don’t. Because where’s the threat?

I've pointed at the evidence that transwomen as a class are no threat to women in general as a class. I know you don't accept that, but that's the logic of it.

How are women sometimes women and sometimes not?

A loose shifting constellation of blah blah blah?

Vulva is v important to him- that is how he assigns sexual partners -
Having a vulva must not be important to anyone else though.

How brilliant to be so entitled!

What is a non-trans woman?

I think I answered this already. It's a womean who was assigned female at birth.

No, you said this - A female person whose gender identity matches their sex

Which is it and what is gender identity?

Noqont the third space solution will not get past the Human Rights Act, on that basis alone it's a non-starter

Don't need a third space. The men's is adequate as the gender neutral space.

When you say you "like vulvas" how do you describe the group of people that vulvas are generally attached to?

Dontgivemethesideeye

Nope - I like vulvas. People's sexual preferences are absolutely there own, nor do I expect anyone to change them to please anyone else

when I say women, I include transwomen

Both these statements can’t be true.
So which is it?

They can both be true. Kale and broccoli are both vegetables. I like the taste of broccolli, I don't like the taste of kale.

It's possible for a person to support a protected groups' civil rights, while not considering them as sexual partners.

Of course it is because men don't have to have trans women thrust upon them, whereas women do. AMIRITE?

BeyondRadicalisationPortal When you say you "like vulvas" how do you describe the group of people that vulvas are generally attached to?

Female people.

They can both be true. Kale and broccoli are both vegetables. I like the taste of broccolli, I don't like the taste of kale.

Yes because they are different vegetables. If we tried to tell you that kale identified as broccoli, you would reject it so...

So under the umbrella "woman" there are transwomen and non-transwomen.

This goes for the umbrella term “man” too, of course.

I dunno.

“Trans” means you have transitioned away from something else. That’s the point of the prefix - to mark you apart. It sucks some trans people do not like that reality, but they need to own it and be proud. Not appropriate language.

No one is assigned a sex at birth. Sex is observed and recorded. If there’s any doubt at all there is a mechanism to delay reporting until genetic and physical testing is done

I've been posting a lot on trans issues over in feminist chat. I am keenly aware that it's primarily a women's forum, for women to discuss issues pertaining to their needs. I also know that the presence of men in women's spaces can undermine useful discussions and become "all about the men"

Going back to the OP - how do you even know you are a man?

TellsEveryoneRealFacts It's possible for a person to support a protected groups' civil rights, while not considering them as sexual partners.

Of course it is because men don't have to have trans women thrust upon them, whereas women do. AMIRITE?

I think I've covered this pretty thoroughly. Happy to enlarge on the answer if you can be more specific.

Nope - I like vulvas. People's sexual preferences are absolutely there own, nor do I expect anyone to change them to please anyone else

So you only want to have sex with biological women then. So you can see there is a clear difference between transwomen and biological women. Despite you saying transwomen are women. They are not the same at all. Are they. Transwomen aren't women.

transwomen as a class are no threat to women in general as a class^

But men as a class ARE. And self ID (de-medicalising trans, offering the option to ‘change sex’ on legal identity documents on a self-certified basis) opens women up to threat from MEN not from ‘transwomen’.

Surely you see that’s a logical consequence of agreeing anyone can be whoever they say they are?

I've pointed at the evidence that transwomen as a class are no threat to women in general as a class. I know you don't accept that, but that's the logic of it

Your opinion doesn’t equate to logic FYI.

I’m heavily involved with the provision of women’s sport. Transwomen are an absolute threat.

TellsEveryoneRealFacts

Going back to the OP - how do you even know you are a man?

Apparently, everyone can tell I am a man by my behaviour!

I don't have a mismatch between my gender identity and my sex, and I was assigned male at birth, and the biology seems to fit. So I am a cisgender man.

No one is assigned a sex at birth.

They can’t both be true at all.

You have to say that or your stance crumbles. Try examining why you don’t want to have sex with a trans identifying man.

Noqont So you only want to have sex with biological women then. So you can see there is a clear difference between transwomen and biological women. Despite you saying transwomen are women. They are not the same at all. Are they. Transwomen aren't women.

I also don't want to have sex with gay transmen, because they are men, regardless of their biology. I accept you don't think transwomen are women. Can you accept that I do?

No. I am advocating for unisex or private facilities where that's possible, and sex segregated spaces where that's reasonable and proportional

Ok, we have that already. It's not up to you to decide where it's reasonable or proportional.
Question, if you daughter enters a sport and loses to a [redacted] how will you feel? Especially if that then prevents her getting a university place.

JacquesHammer By a threat, I meant a violent threat. Sports is one of those areas where the acceptance of transwomen could undermine women's sports altogether. There is a strong argument for sex segregation.

Being a women is defined by your genitals. Not feelings. If trans cared about women they would listen to their conserns not dismiss them.