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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To post on trans issues in the Feminist Chat forum?

654 replies

DadJoke · 11/07/2018 11:50

I've been posting a lot on trans issues over in feminist chat. I am keenly aware that it's primarily a women's forum, for women to discuss issues pertaining to their needs. I also know that the presence of men in women's spaces can undermine useful discussions and become "all about the men"

When I say women, I include transwomen. I know many of you don't, but that's not at all what this AIBU is about.

So, am I making a useful contribution to the debate, or undermining it?

OP posts:
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TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 11/07/2018 15:56

On the basis of this response and many others, I will respect your views and not post on trans issues again outside this thread.

I've screenshot this to remind you when you just can't help it.

Takinrujomu · 11/07/2018 16:09

Wow.

Strip the whole argument back and you start to see a glimmer of misogyny and male entitlement and hypocrisy oozing out."Transwomen are women. But you won't date one" yet we non trans women must share our spaces with trans women because to think otherwise is transphobic. Flipping double standards..

I am not a non trans woman. I wasn't assigned a woman. I came out of my mother's vagina as a girl, was confirmed by a doctor that I am a girl and I am not an adult woman. Don't label me just because of a a few men who suddenly feel like wearing dresses!

SaucyJack · 11/07/2018 16:10

" Why do you want to be segregated away from any transwomen - sticking them in our spaces whether we want them or not?"

I've been wondering this for a while.

Seeing as DadJoke is avoiding the question, I can only assume he's passing the buck to us so he doesn't have to deal with his own discomfort at sharing urinal space with a 6ft4 individual with breast implants and a dress on.

Tough shit. Not our problem mate.

Helmetbymidnight · 11/07/2018 16:12

Op reminds me of a guy who used to go to have sex with lady-boys in Thailand but didn’t like gays.

LangCleg · 11/07/2018 16:12

Seeing as DadJoke is avoiding the question, I can only assume he's passing the buck to us so he doesn't have to deal with his own discomfort at sharing urinal space with a 6ft4 individual with breast implants and a dress on.

Nailed it.

DadJoke · 11/07/2018 16:16

Ah, screw it. I'll let the male entitlement win out and continue posting on my own little thread and not elsewhere. I really don't have anything to lose that I haven't already lost! I'll address anyone who asks me questions, and ignore the rest.

And really, if you honestly think I came on to a board with a long and convoluted scheme in order to pick up gender critical feminists who fundamentally disagree with me via private messaging, then I despair of humanity. By all means report me.

Helmetbymidnight So you're a man campaigning for men to go into women's bathrooms, changing rooms, hospital wards, prisons, all-women shortlists and sports?

No. I am advocating for unisex or private facilities where that's possible, and sex segregated spaces where that's reasonable and proportional. For bathrooms, the status quo is that there is no law pertaining to them, and that people go to the facility that matches their gender. I would oppose a change in law which made sex segregated public bathrooms a legal requirement.

bellinisurge And so a man with a penis can go into a women's bathroom while I am there, or my mum is, or my daughter is, because he feels like a woman. And you don't see the problem with that?

They currently do, and in general if you can see genitals in a bathroom, there is something very wrong going on. Have you found that to be an issue for you? But yes, I am perfectly happy with transwomen sharing a public bathroom with my daughter or my wife or other women I know, and they are happy with it to.

TellsEveryoneRealFacts If you switch gender identity for race, you'll get a clearer idea of my position. If someone posted on twitter "I would never sleep with an Asian person" with no context, I think that would be wrong. But if you were asked in another context, you might answer.

Will you just stop conflating gender for race! They are two completely different issues.

It's an analogy. I am not conflating them, I am comparing them. It's OK not to be attracted to someone because of protected characteristics, but going out of your way to post apropos of nothing on a public forum is very different to expressing your view when asked.

multivac But your insistence that ‘transwomen are women’ leaves you with a bit of a problem, doesn’t it, OP? Because if definition 1. is correct, you aren’t heterosexual, as you are a man, transwomen are women, and you are not sexually attracted to transwomen. And if definition 2 is correct, you aren’t heterosexual either, because you identify as a man, a transwoman identifies as a woman, and you are not sexually attracted to transwoman. Same applies to both categories in definition 3.

I am not attracted to transmen, regardless of whether they have a penis, because I am not attracted to people of the same gender. If I met a transwoman, and didn't know she was a transwoman, I might well be attracted to her, but I would not want to sleep with her because I like vulvas.

Takinrujomu What is a non-trans woman?

I think I answered this already. It's a womean who was assigned female at birth.

TellsEveryoneRealFacts So there’s a difference between non-trans women and trans women but no difference between women and trans women?

No. Women encompasses transwomen and women who are not trans.

bellinisurge

Why is a woman called a non- trans woman rather than a woman?

I can only address these questions in a way that means we disagree on the definition of "woman." This is offensive to some people, just as saying transwomen are men are offensive to others. So I will be unavoidably give offense in order to answer this.

There are some people whose gender identity doesn't match the sex they were assigned at birth. These are transgender people. To name the majority, a term has been coined (now in the dictionary, hooray) cisgender, for people who don't suffer this mismatch. So under the umbrella "woman" there are transwomen and non-transwomen.

Why is it ok for someone to bring their penis into a woman-only space?

Facetiously, if the penis is attached to a women, it's pretty unavoidable. In truth it depends. Some spaces can be sex segragated if it's necessary and proportionate, some gender segregated. That's the law as it currently stands.

Why do lesbians have to swear they'll have sex with trans women or risk being called transphobic?

I fundamentally disagree with anyone whose says that, so I can't answer the question.

Why is it transphobic to disagree with even one thing a trans person wants?

It isn't.

Are people allowed to be gay /lesbian anymore?

Yes, they are. And screw anyone (metaphorically) if they tell you have to select people with a certain set of genitals.

Helmetbymidnight Op reminds me of a guy who used to go to have sex with lady-boys in Thailand but didn’t like gays

That's some homophobic bullshit right there.

OP posts:
DadJoke · 11/07/2018 16:18

SaucyJack Why do you want to be segregated away from any transwomen - sticking them in our spaces whether we want them or not?

I don't want to be segregated away from anything. I want gender segregation where appropriate and sex segregation where appropriate. I have no problem with transmen sharing my space.

OP posts:
Helmetbymidnight · 11/07/2018 16:20

He was, he really was.

DadJoke · 11/07/2018 16:21

SaucyJack Seeing as DadJoke is avoiding the question, I can only assume he's passing the buck to us so he doesn't have to deal with his own discomfort at sharing urinal space with a 6ft4 individual with breast implants and a dress on.

Projecting much? I have no issue with transgender people. This is simply transmisoynistic mockery and disgust.

OP posts:
JacquesHammer · 11/07/2018 16:21

I have no problem with transmen sharing my space

Of course you don’t. Because where’s the threat?

GorgeousJaws · 11/07/2018 16:21

assigned female at birth.

Err, no. I was born female, I was assigned a name at birth. Not my sex.

bellinisurge · 11/07/2018 16:22

But @DadJoke , I'm a woman not a non- trans woman. I don't need to be defined as not being something else.

Helmetbymidnight · 11/07/2018 16:24

transwomen are women but you wouldn’t have sex with a transwoman? - that’s some heterophobic bullshit there.

Noqont · 11/07/2018 16:24

I have no problem with transmen sharing my space.

Great. Good for you. I mean, transmen aren't going to pose a risk to you anyway are they. So if they want to they can access the gender neutral toilet (previously known as the mens.) Women who want to access that can also do so. And transwomen can also access that. The women's facilities will remain the same. For biological women only. Including transmen if they wish. For safeguarding purposes. This is where sex segregation is appropriate. Glad that's all cleared up then :-)

hammeringinmyhead · 11/07/2018 16:25

Quite. A blonde is not a non-brunette.

LangCleg · 11/07/2018 16:26

Aaaaand... a box of Kleenex later, he's back!

How entirely predictable.

Helmetbymidnight · 11/07/2018 16:27

The vulva/body is all-important to op, but women may not define themselves by it.

This guy actually thinks he is nice.

BeyondRadicalisationPortal · 11/07/2018 16:27

🤮

Helmetbymidnight · 11/07/2018 16:29

You can chose you sexual partners by whether they have a vagina or not but women may not define themselves by whether they have a vagina or not?

Is that right?

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 11/07/2018 16:30

This is simply transmisoynistic

What? Why are you making up words?

bellinisurge · 11/07/2018 16:31

Calling me a non trans woman is the same as calling me a non-man. Or a non-unicorn. Or a non-Ford Fiesta. Or a non- turnip etc etc etc.
I'm not a non-anything. I'm a woman. I've got a vulva and everything.

Bowlofbabelfish · 11/07/2018 16:34

transmisoynistic

Is that a dislike of Japanese condiments?

multivac · 11/07/2018 16:35

I am not attracted to transmen, regardless of whether they have a penis, because I am not attracted to people of the same gender. If I met a transwoman, and didn't know she was a transwoman, I might well be attracted to her, but I would not want to sleep with her because I like vulvas

And, to rephrase my original question, are there any other criteria that would automatically and absolutely rule out a woman as a potential sexual partner for you?

NoSquirrels · 11/07/2018 16:37

This is so confused/confusing.

OP, you believe simultaneously that:

Gender identity is real.

Sex is real.

(I am with you so far).

Gender expression can differ from gender identity.

(As per transvestites and drag queens Hmm)

Both gender identity and gender expression can differ from sex.

(Getting lost in the weeds of the permutations possible now)

It’s OK to say trans women are women (because of their gender identity) but it’s also ok to say you don’t have to be attracted to them because lack of vulva/biological sex is relevant to sexual attraction (attraction to sex-based classes of people) trumps gender identity. But it’s not that you’re not attracted to them on the basis of their sex-class its because you’re not attracted to them because it’s an identity thing (or a race thing? I got lost).

How are women sometimes women and sometimes not?

Noqont · 11/07/2018 16:39

Facetiously, if the penis is attached to a women, it's pretty unavoidable

Completely avoidable as women don't have a penis attached to them. Fact.