To point out that Ireland is a separate country?

[DrMantisToboggan]

Just that.

Ireland is a sovereign state, not part of the U.K. It hasn’t been part of the U.K. since 1922.

Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. It’s not part of Great Britain though.

Some people refer to Ireland as the Republic of Ireland, partly to differentiate it from Northern Ireland, but the legal name of the state is Ireland.

While I’m at it, the term “British Isles” is controversial and the product of colonialist geography (geography is not a value-free discipline obviously). The British Gov itself apparently has internal guidance not to use it. In joint documents the British and Irish Govs use the euphemistic phrase “these islands”, and other options include Western Atlantic Archipelago or Islands Of the North Atlantic.

There’s no such country as “Southern Ireland”. And “Eire” is also incorrect, unless you’re in the habit of referring to Germany as Deutschland or Spain as España.

I didn’t know that michelle! Thanks.

I don't think the lack of Irish history on British school curricula is the faintest excuse. I didn't study history at school in Ireland beyond the age of 12 (first year in secondary school), but there is the internet, books, newspapers. It is incredibly easy to inform yourself of the basic issues and events. Surely anyone who has glimpsed a Brexit-and-the-border headline or a snatch of discussion on a TV or radio news or current affairs programme is capable of googling enough to understand the basics of why, how and long long the border has existed, and a very initial account of Partition? In about a minute?

Brexit was the the perfect excuse for anyone who cared, to inform themselves about the situation and status of Ireland. It was in the news every single day for a long time.

I didn't study history at school in Ireland beyond the age of 12 (first year in secondary school)

How was that possible, Ada, since they are only just announcing plans to remove History as a compulsory Junior Cert subject - much to the chagrin of, among others, Miggeldy Higgins?

I am very, very old, and this was Inter Cert, DrMantis. At least, I'm pretty sure I didn't do History Inter Cert back in the Dark Ages -- if I did, I literally remember nothing about the curriculum.

But my point holds even if I did somehow sit through an extra two years of secondary school history in some kind of Rip Van Winkle trance , I certainly didn't do it for Leaving Cert, and it was spectacularly badly taught at my school (famous locally for pregnancies, mitching and fights, and with jaded, demoralised teachers ) not formally being taught something as a school subject doesn't make entire ignorance of it OK, when it something easily rectified with a quick Google.

No I agree with your broader point - was just interested!

Jersey and the Isle of Man not being part of the UK is why they can be tax havens.

No one actually uses 'Eire' when speaking in English do they?

Moonkissed yes, I've heard it used.
Never in Ireland.
Only by English people.
Never in the US, Australia, New Zealand.
Never by non-english speakers.

YANBU.

I live in England but nearly all my extended family live within a couple of miles of the border. I was over there recently and my uncle asked about perceptions of the Brexit border issue - DH said "Well, the Telegraph appears to have gone mad in thinking that Ireland might be persuaded to rejoin the UK..."

Stunned silence, eventually broken by my cousin saying "Rejoin? ReJOIN? Like....we volunteered to join in the first place?"

You'd have to laugh. Ivanovals I can imagine the scene- I'm not from the Border area, but I have lots of friends there, so have been to family events etc.

Rejoin....faints

YANBU. My Oxford professor came back from his first trip to Ireland. He said he really enjoyed it, but that it was a different country and he never really understood that before. The legacy of the colonial mindset still runs deep.

My Oxford professor came back from his first trip to Ireland. He said he really enjoyed it, but that it was a different country and he never really understood that before. The legacy of the colonial mindset still runs deep.

Not surprising people get a bit touchy really is it? Funnily enough, abroad on Continental Europe, when asked if I'm English, I've found that people generally seem very pleased to discover I'm Irish. I'm not sure if Irish people abroad are generally liked, or if it's a casual kind of anti-English sentiment. Either way, there seems to be no problem differentiating between the countries. Though if I said I was Welsh or Scottish maybe I'd get the same reaction, and they do in fact think that all of the island of Ireland is part of the UK.

Interesting to read the PP who gave the very brief history of English occupation/exploitation/suppression of Ireland. I often think that the ruling classes of England did not treat the lower classes of England much better. Cannon fodder, rape, transportation, extreme poverty, extreme capital punishment, eviction, every type of exploitation including of children etc.

Ivano
Which side of the border ?

@changehere your Oxford professor should be fired for stupidity.

I got a lot of anti-Irish prejudice at Oxbridge (all very jokey don’t you know, ha ha ha )

Cannon fodder, rape, transportation, extreme poverty, extreme capital punishment, eviction, every type of exploitation including of children etc

Just to pick up on a couple of these, it’s clear from the historical criminal records that Irish people appearing before British courts were significantly much more likely to have harsh and punitive sentences than their English counterparts charged with similar crimes. Similarly, Irish soldiers in the British Army charged with desertion or cowardice during the Great War were much more likely to be executed than their British comrades.

Unquestionably the English ruling classes didn’t treat their own people well, but we shouldn’t obscure or downplay the highly racialised way Irish people were treated by the British state for a long time. It’s a false equivalence.

I hear you DrMantas

I got myself in hot water for saying something was anti Irish on this site last week.

I do not blame anyone today for the past, like yourself.

I got a lot of anti-Irish prejudice at Oxbridge (all very jokey don’t you know, ha ha ha

Oh God, me too. Though chiefly, I think, that a working-class Irishwoman was there at all.

And I remember going home with a friend in the vac and her parents having a rather grand dinner party at which one of their friends seemed terribly puzzled by me and ended up asking me pointblank whether I was really at Oxford with S. or whether I really meant 'Oxford Brookes or one of those secretarial colleges'.

The ‘not wanting England to win the world cup’ thread has a few casual sweeping claims of Ireland in the U.K.

Genuine question - Why is Éire incorrect? And yes, as my family is anglo-german, i do refer to Germany as Deutschland fairly often.

I can never figure out if it's ignorance of history or deliberate obtuseness that leads English people (Scots and Welsh seem to get it, IME) to a lack of understanding of what Ireland is.

Well, the Scots certainly get it because there's an ignorance about our history too. A case in point is the Post Office not understanding why post boxes with ER2 on were offensive until they started being blown up. At least the current Duke of Rothesay is more switched on, as is the Earl of Strathearn.

The confusion isn't helped by a certain type of NI person either. I remember when the Police Widows Association came to visit the Scottish National Police Memorial en route to (IIRC) the National Arboretum and memorials there. One coach load (who were probably all RUC widows) refused point blank to have any mention of Ireland, Northern or other, so there was the English coaches, the Scottish coach, the Welsh coach - and the British coach. To much Scottish hilarity I must say.

Do you speak Irish? If you’re not speaking in Irish, don’t use Éire (and actually if you are speaking Irish, you’re probably relatively unlikely to use Éire as a stand-alone word, because of grammar rules as Gaeilge). It’s really quite simple.

It has derogatory connotations, owing to how it was used by British politicians and people from the late 30s onwards. All part of poking fun at and asserting superiority over the silly Irish with their silly language.

they are only just announcing plans to remove History as a compulsory Junior Cert subject

@DrMantisToboggan History has actually never been compulsory for Junior Cert, the only subjects that were ever compulsory were English, Irish and Maths. It was just that in practice a lot of schools insisted on it being taken for Junior Cert.

Oh and latterly CSPE!