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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To point out that Ireland is a separate country?

418 replies

DrMantisToboggan · 07/07/2018 21:41

Just that.

Ireland is a sovereign state, not part of the U.K. It hasn’t been part of the U.K. since 1922.

Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. It’s not part of Great Britain though.

Some people refer to Ireland as the Republic of Ireland, partly to differentiate it from Northern Ireland, but the legal name of the state is Ireland.

While I’m at it, the term “British Isles” is controversial and the product of colonialist geography (geography is not a value-free discipline obviously). The British Gov itself apparently has internal guidance not to use it. In joint documents the British and Irish Govs use the euphemistic phrase “these islands”, and other options include Western Atlantic Archipelago or Islands Of the North Atlantic.

There’s no such country as “Southern Ireland”. And “Eire” is also incorrect, unless you’re in the habit of referring to Germany as Deutschland or Spain as España.

OP posts:
KittyVonCatsworth · 08/07/2018 10:27

Hey DrMantis - no need to be snippy love, thanks you've answered the question in your first sentence. And yes, I do sometimes use Deutschland and sometimes use Espana as I can speak a little German and am currently learning Spanish.

DrMantisToboggan · 08/07/2018 10:29

You use ‘Deutschland’ and ‘España’ when speaking in English? That’s... unusual.

Wasn’t being snippy at all (love), just trying to be helpful by pointing out a parallel situation Smile.

OP posts:
Rosebud21 · 08/07/2018 10:37

The correct spelling is Éire, The incorrect spelling Eire has a different meaning.

There's an interesting summary here, with references. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Éire

Rosebud21 · 08/07/2018 10:38

DrMantisToboggan, careful now, down with this sort of thing...

KittyVonCatsworth · 08/07/2018 10:39

Why wouldn't I use Deutschland and Espana? Why couldn't I use the words bikini, igloo etc etc? Just because they're not "British" words does it prohibit me to use them? I'm married into an Irish family who use the term very ocassionally. I asked my STBXH the use of Eire the last time this cropped up on MN and he couldn't get why it was offensive either, and to his credit he's taught me a lot about the other side to the conflict and not just what the BBC fed us so although not growing up in it, I do "get it".

Like I said, your first part of your post was helpful to a point, but as for the rest - unnecessary.

somewhereovertherain · 08/07/2018 10:39

Used to live on the Isle of Man and they get upset when you refer to the United Kingdom as the mainland.

Also used to get pissed off a people asking me if I worried about being blown up. The closet we came to being blown up was in London. Despite living in Galway : Dublin for 20 years.

Irish rugby team awesome off to the us shorty to watch the sevens team in the World Cup.

ForalltheSaints · 08/07/2018 10:40

Given some people are not good on geography, the OP is Ok with pointing this out.

Personally I would like to see all 32 counties as one country, with majority consent for this, but even if you disagree with this, I think a country should still be called by its correct name.

KittyVonCatsworth · 08/07/2018 10:42

Apologies for the incorrect spelling, I'm on a MacBook and no idea how to amend! Similar to Espana - Escocia if pronounced incorrectly means "nasty rash after sex" as I learned when I lived out there!

KittyVonCatsworth · 08/07/2018 10:46

Further apologies rosebud, read the wiki page and see now that it's not just a "misspelling".

Rosebud21 · 08/07/2018 10:46

I cheated KittyVonCatsworth, I copy and pasted it from wiki :)

knittingdad · 08/07/2018 10:55

When I visited Orkney last summer it was interesting to note that the largest island of the Orkney Islands is called "Mainland".

It seems natural that the meaning of mainland would vary depending on context, and perspective and I look forward to a time when Irish people can use "mainland" to refer to their main land of Ireland when talking about returning their from Britain.

Ifailed · 08/07/2018 11:07

the term “British Isles” is controversial and the product of colonialist geography

It's a product of the name given to them by the native Celts. Diodorus Siculus had the name down as Prettanikē nēsos, the shift from the P sound to B occurred later on, so by the time of Julius Caesar it was known as as Britannia. The largest Island became known as Great Britain, because it was the biggest. Brittany also got it's name the same way, are we supposed to ignore that as well - what about the language many people speak, English? This West Germanic language got it's name from the Anglia area of what is now known as Germany, should that too be renamed?
The various rules of Britain - the Romans, the Danes, the Vikings, the Saxons, the Angles, the Normans all did some pretty nasty things to the inhabitants of these Islands (at the same time as the rulers of other parts of the world), We can either learn from that and try and ensure it doesn't happen again, or we can paper over the facts and pretend they didn't occur.

BaronessBlonde · 08/07/2018 11:08

I can never figure out if it's ignorance of history or deliberate obtuseness that leads English people (Scots and Welsh seem to get it, IME) to a lack of understanding of what Ireland is.

Perhaps they are equally ignorant of other countries.

Ireland, the island was a single country prior to being invaded, first by the Normans, then subsequently England.
Until 1801, Ireland continued to have it's own parliament in Dublin, but after that, was ruled directly from London.

Over the entire period that England ruled Ireland, there was gross, derogatory discrimination against the native population, destruction of the language and heritage, removal of natives from their land and placement with emigrants from Britain; mismanagement leading to major famine and emigration, lack of education for the native population, lack of industrial or agricultural development.

The London government, insisted on labelling Irish people as backward (no opportunity for education -the majority Catholic population could not access education unless wealthy enough to send children to France/Spain for education) dirty (no nationwide road or sanitation network) stupid (cf education) etc etc.
All of which was very handy, for propagating a sense of "otherness" about Irish people. And, as a majority Catholic country at the time, Ireland had to be subjugated to mitigate against the "back-door" threat of invasion into Britain, from France or Spain.

All of which left Ireland, at the edge of Europe, but considerably poor and undeveloped.
After 1916-21 (rebellion, war of independence) Ireland finally succeeded in achieving independent Dublin based government, and the country could finally start to determine it's own path. At that time, Lloyd George (British Prime Minister) insisted that Britain would retain 6 counties in Ulster, which is now Northern Ireland.

That portion of Ireland continued to be mismanaged; and the Catholic population there continued to be discriminated against. The Catholic population co-opted the approach of black people in the US to protest against that discrimination- which is what kick-started the "Troubles".

The "troubles"/civil war in Northern Ireland was entirely a conflict inside the borders of the United Kingdom; and technically nothing to do with the Republic of Ireland.

The attitudes toward Irish people which were fostered to subjugate the country over centuries, have persisted into the present day.

I've been asked told by an English person (from Nottingham) this century "don't we still own you"?
I mean, who says that?

Don't I still own you?

I happen to like English people and the country and it's history and it's achievements; and there are many things that the world is grateful to Britain for; but the ignorance shown, would be worthy of an AIBU thread if we were two houses adjacent to each other.

So, yes, OP, you are not unreasonable to go on and on and on and on, reminding British people that Ireland is a separate country which is equally as separate as France, Norway, Denmark, Germany, Hungary, Brazil, Laos etc.

beanaseireann · 08/07/2018 11:10

I hope journalist Rachel Johnson ( sister of Boris) is reading this, I'm not sure she knows that Ireland is a
separate country and is not part of the U.K.
Northern Ireland is part of the U.K. because a deal was done to end Ireland's War of Independence ( from Britain) and this meant 6 counties of the island of Ireland remained under British rule.

Fifthtimelucky · 08/07/2018 11:26

I would have hoped that most people would have known that Ireland was not part of the UK. However, I have learned today that I should not use the term Éire, given that I am English and speak in English.

On the British Isles point, my understanding is that is a geographical description rather than a political/legal one. It covers the islands of Great Britain, Ireland and all the various little ones.

The correct legal/political term is either UK or 'British Islands' depending on which bits you want to cover. The 'British Islands' includes the Isle of Man and Channel Islands, which are not part of the UK.

LegoBitcho · 08/07/2018 11:34

Good thread OP I'm Australian and my Irish DH has educated me on Irish history.

IMO it's ok to not know, it's not ok to be ignorant and not want to know. Polite, informative threads like this help educate.

Ifailed · 08/07/2018 11:35

BaronessBlonde As I had an Irish mother, I am fortunate enough to know some of Ireland's history, but for many English people, it's not something taught in schools in any depth.

I wonder how many Scottish people know about the invasion of Ireland, led by Robert the Bruce's brother, in the 14th Century?

beanaseireann · 08/07/2018 11:36

Fifthtimelucky
Jersey and the Isle of Man are not part of the U.K. Shock
Is Quern Elizabeth 2 not their sovereign ruler ?

RavenWings · 08/07/2018 11:42

The British Isles term absolutely has political connotations and the Irish government don't recognise it afaik.

Yes, using Éire shouldn't really be done unless speaking Irish. If you want to make yourself sound like one of those bigots who couldn't recognise the nation's choice of name, that's up to you - but I don't see why anyone would want that. I think if you're Irish it doesn't quite have that connotation.

Rosebud21 · 08/07/2018 11:48

BaronessBlonde, & this is why this topic remains important to Irish today, similar to all lest we forget historical events - if there was like/love button.

Absolutely no disrepect intended to the usual Remembrance Day usage, my (Irish) great-aunt was an RN who died while serving on a WWII hospital ship.

Rosebud21 · 08/07/2018 11:49
  • to Irish people today...
BaronessBlonde · 08/07/2018 12:00

As LegoBitcho says "it's ok to not know, it's not ok to be ignorant and not want to know".

Absolutely- there are probably fine points of the Battle of Trafalgar or the Domesday book that I am ignorant on...but I read and I learn.

I have no objection to people asking questions and wanting to learn...but comments such as Rachel Johnson's are a deliberate put-down and are aimed at her congregation of people who feel better by belittling others.

sashh · 08/07/2018 12:07

Peace and love to everyone in the Western Atlantic Archipelago or Islands Of the North Atlantic.

What have you got against the Channel Islands?

I can never figure out if it's ignorance of history or deliberate obtuseness that leads English people (Scots and Welsh seem to get it, IME) to a lack of understanding of what Ireland is.

It's ignorance of history, we learn English History in England, or certainly at school I did.

The only time Ireland was mentioned was Daniel O'Connell, the only mention of Scotland was James VI/I. Wales didn't get a mention.

I think partly the problem with teaching history is that Irish history is so wound up in English history you cannot teach it in isolation, but with English history you can teach huge chunks of it without linking to Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and many countries of the former empire.

The same applies to other countries, for South Africa the Boer War is a huge part of history, not so much in the UK. Ask a British person which country invented concentration camps and most will say Germany.

Also English history, as taught in schools, concentrates a lot on royalty not on the ordinary people, or not much until the industrial revolution, Irish history is very much about ordinary people.

michellefromtheresistance · 08/07/2018 12:14

Jersey and the Isle of Man are not part of the U.K. shock
Is Quern Elizabeth 2 not their sovereign ruler

The Isle of Man and the Channel Islands seems complicated in their relationship with the UK (according to Wiki)

They are Crown Dependancies

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_dependencies

"Crown dependencies are three island territories off the coast of Britain which are self-governing possessions of the Crown. These are the Bailiwick of Guernsey, the Bailiwick of Jersey and the Isle of Man. They do not form part of either the United Kingdom or the British Overseas Territories.[1][2] Internationally, the dependencies are considered "territories for which the United Kingdom is responsible", rather than sovereign states.[3]"

BaronessBlonde · 08/07/2018 12:19

Ahhh interesting, Sashh.

I agree, the history of Ireland cannot be told without reference to invading forces from Vikings/Normans/Ango/English.

However, it still seems astounding to me that my (very ordinary) education has left me as familiar with topics such as Bismarck's role in the unification of Germany as I am with the contemporaneous post-famine Irish landscape.
But, an equivalent person from my neighbouring country would struggle to say what years I refer to?
That same education leaves me quite familiar with the Boer wars, so yes, I would have been able to identify the British use of concentration camps as part of their strategy. I learned about the siege of Mafeking, Rhodes etc.

And focussing your history on royalty seems a bit narrow, no?

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