To point out that Ireland is a separate country?

[DrMantisToboggan]

Just that.

Ireland is a sovereign state, not part of the U.K. It hasn’t been part of the U.K. since 1922.

Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. It’s not part of Great Britain though.

Some people refer to Ireland as the Republic of Ireland, partly to differentiate it from Northern Ireland, but the legal name of the state is Ireland.

While I’m at it, the term “British Isles” is controversial and the product of colonialist geography (geography is not a value-free discipline obviously). The British Gov itself apparently has internal guidance not to use it. In joint documents the British and Irish Govs use the euphemistic phrase “these islands”, and other options include Western Atlantic Archipelago or Islands Of the North Atlantic.

There’s no such country as “Southern Ireland”. And “Eire” is also incorrect, unless you’re in the habit of referring to Germany as Deutschland or Spain as España.

@beanaseireann - actually makes me feel sick. Surely it's not that long ago. And surely people haven't suddenly got short memories.
Nor are things so fragile that you can't be honest about what a nasty shit he is.

I just don't understand people's mindsets over Ireland and never have. Why does it matter who owns and runs a country if they are both democracies. I was not suggesting the South invades the North. I was just saying if that is the best solution in due course that's fine and ditto any other. I said nothing about force and I thnk above the only thing I mentioned was the majority of the people of NI voting to join the South which I think is the current understanding anyway if that ever were to happen. Both countries are fair reasonable democracies with very similar laws. People move between the two countries all the time and yet it is such a big deal to so many. I still don't understand it. Northumberland where I am from used to be separate and now is ruled by the English but I couldn't care less.

I honestly don't understand how you can be an effective and high-earning lawyer with such a limited and unimaginative world view of history, priorities, tribalism etc. I'd be embarrased if my 16 year old said this and feel I had wasted my education dollars. Don't you ever feel you should educate yourself and deepen your view of democracies/european history?

What Irish history do children in schools in England learn?

I went to school in London (Catholic school) and we learned nothing, nada, not a thing about Irish history.

I learned it from my Irish parents and I identify as Irish. I have found a great deal of ignorance about Ireland and prejudice voiced to me by people who don't realise I'm Irish.

The ignorance is bliss, I think, since confronting what happened makes those who identify as English deeply uncomfortable. The decent folk anyhow. Many, many choose ignorance and meh when it comes to Irish issues and education would make a massive difference.

The English see their recent history firstly as heroic ( WW2 beating the Nazis) and then as victims: IRA bombing in what was always described in the news papers as 'mainland Britain'. Having a different perspective where the English are found to have committed attrocties does not sit at all well with most of these people's internal narratives.

This is even more nuanced with the enormous mixing of the peoples from these neighbouring lands. My own parents derived much educational advantage from emigrating to London.

I think education in England is essential, it will be uncomfortable and shocking, but a must. FWIW I have lost count of the number of people to whom I have had to explain that Ireland is not 'in the U.K.' And that neither is it split into equal halves, the entire North of the country being in the UK and the South being out.

@nakedscientist
"The English see their recent history firstly as heroic ( WW2 beating the Nazis) and then as victims: IRA bombing in what was always described in the news papers as 'mainland Britain'. Having a different perspective where the English are found to have committed attrocties does not sit at all well with most of these people's internal narratives. "

I agree.
I also think that this is quite a telling difference between English and Irish attitudes.
My father's family was targeted by the Black and Tans who burned his uncle's home. My grandmother had the house tossed over by British soldiers in the War of Independence.
I say this to give a flavour of how easily he could have gone along with the bitterness towards England.

Instead, I grew up listening to him laud Churchill's strength during the war- and how strong "the Brits" were when their backs were against the wall in 1940.
I also heard him deplore how Catholics were treated in Northern Ireland (appalling) but still think that bombing Birmingham or kidnapping/torturing British soldiers was completely wrong.

He has (and I think many Irish people have) the ability to have a nuanced "internal narrative" holding both good and bad in mind.
That is- Britain forcibly misruled Ireland, decimating the population, imposing prejudice and atrocities BUT you have to let that go and move on.

Whereas the attitudes I've experienced living in England were more of an Irish= bad flavour. End of.
Irish = violent, peasant, drunkard, untrustworthy, church-bound, stupid, backward.

Having such clearly demarked judgements is comfortable but it does not lend well to understanding other people and countries.
Some of which has been demonstrated on this thread.

Baroness I found your last post very interesting.

Oh?
Why?

Irish = violent, peasant, drunkard, untrustworthy, church-bound, stupid, backward.

I'm sorry you experience that. What I've seen over the years is slightly different, maybe because I tended to live in 'working class' areas? A lot of people had relatives in Ireland and could quite easily make the distinction between their cousins - who they admired & visited, and those committing terrorist actions. Some of the worse comments came from the middle-class 'professionals'.

As to Irish History not being covered in English schools (I don't know about Welsh or Scottish ones), it's not really surprising. Due to the UK's long history of conflicts with other countries (Spain, France, the Dutch, USA, WWI, WW2 etc) the "Empire", the Industrial revolution etc, there are an awful lot of events to cover in the curriculum, events with more of a global impact than those just relating to Ireland.

I get that Ireland is a close neighbour, but wonder if in a straw poll how many 'English' people would name it if asked "which is our nearest neighbouring country?" France, or Scotland, rather than Ireland?
I do wonder whether Ireland relationship with England, is similar to England's relationship with the USA - one side is far more interested in what the other thinks about it?

I just don't understand people's mindsets over Ireland and never have. Why does it matter who owns and runs a country if they are both democracies. I was not suggesting the South invades the North. I was just saying if that is the best solution in due course that's fine and ditto any other. I said nothing about force and I thnk above the only thing I mentioned was the majority of the people of NI voting to join the South which I think is the current understanding anyway if that ever were to happen. Both countries are fair reasonable democracies with very similar laws. People move between the two countries all the time and yet it is such a big deal to so many. I still don't understand it. Northumberland where I am from used to be separate and now is ruled by the English but I couldn't care less.

You clearly don't want to understand it. This is one of the most ignorant posts I think I've seen on Mumsnet which is really saying something. You've had plenty of very patient posters pointing out what is wrong/ignorant about your contributions to this thread and yet you persist. Perhaps pick up a history book and educate yourself before spouting off.

Equally Auti and her anti-Eu rant earlier. Ireland isn't even in the Schengen zone FFS.

Ifailed
Your point about class, is very interesting. Class would not have been something that I was too concerned about before living in the UK (naive, young), but it chimes with my experience when I think about it.
And, I've heard similar attitudes expressed in the US, New Zealand, Australia (ex-colonies). Again, probably moreso from "professionals".

However, I really, really have an issue about the teaching of history.
I did history at Second Level but not in university.
As as result, I've said upthread, I have a passing familiarity with the structure and history of many European countries. Enough not to demonstrate ignorance and prejudice.
Nonetheless, if I'm speaking to a Dutch person, and they want to clarify the difference between Holland and The Netherlands, I'll shut up and learn.

And, let's not forget, the history of Ireland, is the history of a part of the UK.

I could even argue that those events, did have a global impact (changing the constituent population of the US, Canada, Australia; impoverished aristocracy in post-Famine Ireland; break-up of the British Empire post World War1 following Irish representation at the Treaty of Versailles).

I totally agree about the imbalance of interest..you see it vis-a-vis New Zealand/Australia, the US/Canada etc etc.

BaronessBlonde I totally agree with your comment about Irish history and UK history overlapping. Maybe I'm not explaining myself very well, but as far as I'm aware, the teaching of Irish history per se is not part of the GCSE curriculum, and as so many schools now concentrate on teaching for the exam to make their results look good, it will be barely covered. Remember in England, students do not all sit the same exam, there are different exam boards with slightly different curricula. It would be V useful to hear from a history teacher!
Hence there will be people in England who will have little knowledge of Irish history, except when it's part of 'British History' and those with connections to the country (& then it may well be a biased viewpoint that they learn).
A willingness to learn seems to be sadly lacking in many people, & I find it appalling that many get their 'news' and viewpoints from a small section of tabloid newspapers, many spouting exaggerated or simply incorrect stories with a right-wing bias. The fact that most are owned by tax-dodging billionaires who live overseas is lost on their readers.

Irish = violent, peasant, drunkard, untrustworthy, church-bound, stupid, backward

This is a pretty universal experience in England but clearly not shared by those who are from an Irish family themselves. It it not shared by every Englishman but it is the lazy persons default. Think the " thick Paddy" trope.
Working class "Brits" have not been more understanding than the middleclass. I have close personal experience of this. My DH is English and his family are working class and definitely not ready to challenge the stereotype.
My DH totally broke the mould, read some history and went to live in Ireland for a year. He educated himself and was shocked at what he found out.

My parents have all the stories about " no Irish, no blacks, no dogs" signs in pubs, or for accommodation or jobs in 1950s London. Some of the way they were treated makes your hair stand on end. Again, not everybody though.

My Grandfather supported the IRA against the Free Staters in 1922 but he too loved the Queen and admired Churchill but he did resent the Scots due to his terrifying experiences with the black and tans.

With the greatest respect I don't think the approach 'England has a lot of history so doesn't have time to cover Ireland' is supportable. It totally needs to be in the curriculum and is utterly relevant right now in the form of Brexit and the boarder.

I hear you Ifailed and we are probably coming at it from the same angle.

In Ireland, we have our own versions of tabloids, who like to pander to ignorance instead of challenging it (I guess that's where the profits are).

A willingness to learn seems to be sadly lacking in many people...
yes, I agree.
And then I have to remember that learning can be challenging.

A set mindset about the world provides you with security and apparent predictability.
IF much of the rest of your life is insecure and unpredictable, then having one's viewpoint echoed and reinforced by your peers and your paper is safe.

I'll say it again; the issue I struggle with, is when people refuse to listen or learn, even when they seem to be articulate and open-minded in other ways. Cf Boris Johnson, Rachel Johnson, almost all the British cabinet, posters who think that they should "take Ireland back".

• border

Baroness
I think Rachel Johnson is under the impression they don't need to take Ireland back as it is part of the U.K.
But I may ( hopefully) be wrong.

He has (and I think many Irish people have) the ability to have a nuanced "internal narrative" holding both good and bad in mind.

Yes, absolutely. And the fact of being able to collectively and individually hold a nuanced double (or at least double) narrative in mind was key to the GFA and what led up to it, and has been crucial to maintaining peace since.

Brexit and the border issue strikes a potentially fatal blow to being able to maintain that kind of flexibility -- as many of us were saying, clearly largely unheeded, in the run up to the Brexit referendum. Aargh.

IFailed, I think that class is an important point in how being Irish is perceived in England (I can't speak for Scotland or Wales) -- some of my worst experiences have been at polite middle-class dinner parties and at Oxford. London was better than rural England, despite living in the vicinity of a hugely racially-diverse city.

Irishness in my experience codes as 'not quite white' or 'not quite without race' for a small but significant minority middle-class people in England, and it default-codes to 'working class and uncultivated' -- hence the perpetuation of the feckless, drunken, violent, priest-ridden stereotype straight from late 19thc Punch.

I am working-class and Irish, and have held onto my regional accent in my two decades in England, but I originally came over to study at Oxford, and have a traditionally middle-class job which required multiple postgraduate degrees. And that sometimes confuses the hell out of people, as if they can't hold the clashing codes together.

And, let's not forget, the history of Ireland, is the history of a part of the UK.

Absolutely. Ireland is not some kind of wingman to its bigger neighbour, anxiously checking over its shoulder to see if its former colonial overlord is still paying it attention -- I would see the UK's relationship with the US as far more craven in that sense. The EU is now Ireland's important other. But Ireland is currently interested in UK events because the UK's political decisions are having a potentially disastrous impact not just on that part of Ireland within the UK which voted overwhelming to remain within the EU, but on the island as a whole.

I could even argue that those events, did have a global impact

Yes, and as well as the ones you mentioned, there's the fact that the Irish fight for independence and its documents were hugely influential on the independence movements in other former colonies slightly later in the 20thc.

I still think that what is taught at British schools about Irish history is a complete red herring in a world where huge amount of information is at your fingertips with a quick Google. There's no excuse for ignorance.

Grand Totally agree with all of the above.

"Ireland is not some kind of wingman to its bigger neighbour, anxiously checking over its shoulder to see if its former colonial overlord is still paying it attention" -- I do think there was a bit of that going on, but the relationship with Europe has diminished it.
Additionally, due to emigration, the Irish relationship with the US is far out of proportion to the relative size of the country (a bit like Israel, you could argue).
So, our outward view of the world is not looking over our shoulder; more dodging around the interfering neighbour who would like to dominate.

I worry that the nuanced, internal narrative is under threat due to Brexit. Or that those reasonable voices would be drowned out by reactionaries.
Paddy Kielty's documentary was a brilliant example of how people react to outrages....it's so easy for any of us to tip over into revenge.

at is taught at British schools about Irish history is a complete red herring in a world where huge amount of information is at your fingertips with a quick Google. There's no excuse for ignorance

I agree in the feeling that it's not an excuse but if you are teaching things to children their minds are open to ideas in a way that adult minds are not. For those who won't maintain their intellectual curiosity, which is many, teaching them that Ireland matters to their history will improve English attitudes no end.

Google is a bit of a sidestep though...we all know that information can be manipulated.

While the internet supplies information freely, it also allows one to find lots of people who will supplement any pre-existing prejudice.
A good teacher encourages a learner to seek reliable sources of information. And challenges one to look at an alternative point of view.

It totally needs to be in the curriculum and is utterly relevant right now in the form of Brexit and the boarder.

Flash forward to an English school gcse history class (will any of those things still exist? ) 2060: “the whole country voted to leave the EU but Ireland stuck their spanner in the works by refusing to let us put a border on our own land! They’re lucky we didn’t invade and take back the land we gave them.”

A slight segue here, but I’ve been reading a lot about the history of mental health and post famine, English asylums were hugely disproportionately filled with Irish. Whether that’s because they were so traumatised by what they’d lived through, or it was social housing by another name, is debatable, but the numbers aren’t. Over half of all asylum inpatients in the 1880s were Irish yet they only represented around 20% of the population.

I also wonder if the stereotype around alcohol grew out of post famine trauma.

Marryone I read a book about the Famine not so long ago- it spoke about the flight of Irish people out of Ireland in 1847 as being akin to people fleeing from a burning building.
The author went on to recount stories of the high rate of suicide amongst Irish people after spending time in inner city Liverpool (that was the particular city mentioned- as a post city, where ships from Dublin landed.).

One story talked about a man who had fled with his family and if I remember correctly, subsequently contracted Typhoid. After the deaths of his wife and children, in the slums of Liverpool, he hung himself.
Having read that book, I can imagine people turning to alcohol to numb the hour.

However, the stereotypes were alive and well for a long time before that I believe.
The papal bull of 1100 (and something) essentially gave the King licence to invade Ireland (historians debate whether or not it was forged).
Essentially, Ireland did not experience the Dark Ages, retained scholarship and emerged as a source of teaching as Europe re-emerged.
That alternative non-Rome based source of teaching did not suit the Roman church which sought to concentrate power in it's own hands.
So, it bothered Irish people as being uncivilised.

There was a fascinating BBC4 documentary about it, maybe 18months ago.

port city

numb the horror

proofread, Blonde!!!

Can't find the documentary as I think it was a woman historian, but Dan Snow did one also.
He argues that it was a close-run thing that Britain and Ireland did not become the Irish Isles .

Most of my Irish ancestors (all Catholic from N and S) who left for England left between 1820 and 1852. One left in the 1860s - they were Catholics in N Ireland but in a part which my father said had not suffered in the way of some other parts - he was in touch with his relatives on the family farm there in the 1980s.

I wuld certainly support reintroducing more about Ireland into the UK GCSE syllabus. We did a fair bit at O level and a lot at A level in the 1970s in England.