To point out that Ireland is a separate country?

[DrMantisToboggan]

Just that.

Ireland is a sovereign state, not part of the U.K. It hasn’t been part of the U.K. since 1922.

Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. It’s not part of Great Britain though.

Some people refer to Ireland as the Republic of Ireland, partly to differentiate it from Northern Ireland, but the legal name of the state is Ireland.

While I’m at it, the term “British Isles” is controversial and the product of colonialist geography (geography is not a value-free discipline obviously). The British Gov itself apparently has internal guidance not to use it. In joint documents the British and Irish Govs use the euphemistic phrase “these islands”, and other options include Western Atlantic Archipelago or Islands Of the North Atlantic.

There’s no such country as “Southern Ireland”. And “Eire” is also incorrect, unless you’re in the habit of referring to Germany as Deutschland or Spain as España.

I did a lot of Irish history at school. I was scanning parts of my O level and A level exam papers recently and was seeing how much we did of it.

People can use the terms they choose unless the state bans the words - some older people still refer to Burma, Peking, Bombay, Ceylon. I am totally neutral on the irish issue with roots in both camps. I would be happy with any of we cede the whole Ireland to Eire, we take the whole island back or we continue the split until the people of Northern Ireland decide otherwise. I don't really see why it does matter so much to people in 2018 however after all this time and given living in either country is a fairly similar thing and experience but I do know that people have died for it and I certainly remember the troubles.

You'd be happy with "taking the whole island back"? What, invading (again) and forcibly lang-grabbing (again) an independent country. Would you be happy doing the to Frace, too? India? South Africa?

I thought that because you're a lawyer you're reasonably intelligent. But clearly not.

Xenia you’re embarrassing yourself now.

Xenia, I’m scarlet for you.

I just don't understand people's mindsets over Ireland and never have. Why does it matter who owns and runs a country if they are both democracies. I was not suggesting the South invades the North. I was just saying if that is the best solution in due course that's fine and ditto any other. I said nothing about force and I thnk above the only thing I mentioned was the majority of the people of NI voting to join the South which I think is the current understanding anyway if that ever were to happen. Both countries are fair reasonable democracies with very similar laws. People move between the two countries all the time and yet it is such a big deal to so many. I still don't understand it. Northumberland where I am from used to be separate and now is ruled by the English but I couldn't care less.

Xenia, in the nicest possible way, it’s very clear from all of your posts that you don’t understand.

What is difficult for me to understand in turn is why you keep seeming to suggest lengthily that your own combination of bafflement and indifference about political jurisdictions on the island of Ireland — and these islands in general — should mean that Irish people who both understand and care, should follow your lead and say ‘meh’.

The jaw-dropping suggestion in previous post wasn't the north returning to be part of the Republic - that's a legitimate political aim (under the GFA) and there will be a referendum about it, on both sides of the border, in due course. Neither is the north remaining as part of the UK - again, it's a legitimate political aim. Not one I share, but I understand and respect many who do. But you said you would be. happy with another option too - that "we take the whole island back". We meaning UK.
I don't see what them both being democratic has to do with it. In fact I think it makes it worse!

Again, are you equally happy with "taking back" South Africa, India and France? If not, what's the difference between them and Ireland?

Xenia I have seen you post for many many years.
I think I've said on a thread before, that I admire your attitudes to work and women's ambition.

But, Lordy, all I can think is that someone has hacked your account; your views here as so far removed from a considered, thoughtful opinion.

" I just don't understand people's mindsets over Ireland and never have. Why does it matter who owns and runs a country if they are both democracies ".

In that case, why don't you agitate for Britain to become the 51st state of the US...what does it matter who owns and runs your country? The US is nominally a democracy.

Can I move into your home and run it for you....after all, if it's fair and a democracy, why does it matter who owns and runs it for you?

Bonkers.

It doesn’t matter what the majority in NI want. Good luck trying to get the Republic to take on NI, I can’t think of anyone in the South who wants that. So NI can debate it all they like. But it’s not (just) their decision. People forget that.

Perhaps Ireland will invade England and have you all ag labhairt i nGaeilge. You’re smart Xenia, you’ll pick up the language quickly. I’m sure you’d have no objections. After all, what does it matter? They’re both democracies.

@Xenia 'Both countries are fair reasonable democracies with very similar laws. People move between the two countries all the time and yet it is such a big deal to so many. I still don't understand it. Northumberland where I am from used to be separate and now is ruled by the English but I couldn't care less.'

Your baseline assumption here is one that I've come across quite a few times in the UK - that Ireland = rest of UK, in the way that e.g. 'moving from England to Wales or Scotland might be a bit different, but it's essentially the same, right?' That statement is debatable I'm sure, but I get where people are coming from when they say something similar.

The same statement when I hear it as an Irish person, living in England shocks me - because I know just how different Ireland is from the UK, to what degree it is completely and utterly separate, with its own very particular identity, culture, and attitudes towards everything really. It's a bit like saying 'Why don't France and Italy just merge then? It really is very different - I say this as someone with an English DH who I will at some point import to live in Ireland (willingly).

Let’s go get Calais. It was ours, and shall be again...

DP's family are from Monaghan, clearly Xenia has no idea of recent history.

However, in the words of John Lennon:
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace

It would be lovely to live in a world where the concept of 'Us' and 'Them' was meaningless. I'm not talking about a homogeneous culture, I mean a world where everybody's culture was equally respected. Sadly, whilst there's power to be gained by dividing us, it will continue.

I just don't understand people's mindsets over Ireland and never have. Why does it matter who owns and runs a country if they are both democracies.

(Xenia, "you cannot be serious!", to quote the great John McEnroe.)

Scotland and Northern Ireland both voted overwhelmingly Remain in the EU Referendum.
Both Scotland and Northern Ireland are now forced to leave the EU.

This alone should make crystal clear why it matters who owns and runs a country if they are both democracies.

I am with John Lenin on this but I certainly agree it is going to be best to leave everything well alone. We have relative peace at present. Let us hope it can stay that way.

The issue is that the status quo was working well for the Irish border.

The good Friday agreement was a political coup that managed to frame NI rights in a way that suited both sides. Now that's set to be disrupted.

A hard border must be imposed, unless a deal can be worked out between the U.K. and Europe. The WTO would insist on this too.

Any other solutions are not tenable.

The UK 'taking back the whole island'. HAHAHAHA. You do get how offensive this is, right? How about the Irish take over the UK instead and bring it back into the EU fold. How does that sound?

A united ireland shouldn't be attempted until a majority in NI want it and the population in the republic are behind it. We are not there yet and we may never be.

It's such a shame for Ireland that the peace process looks set to be sacrificed at the altar of their brexit ambitions.

"it is going to be best to leave everything well alone"
Well.....Brexit.
Not leaving well alone.
The implications for the island of Ireland (that is the country of Northern Ireland- part of the UK , and the Republic of Ireland) are staggering.
We could leave well alone, but that would be Nero-ish.

"We have relative peace at present. Let us hope it can stay that way"
That peace was hard won; it took hard work on the part of many, many people over many years.
People like John Hume, who is almost forgotten, and his bravery.

The peace is not static- the "hard men" as the famous phrase goes "have not gone away, you know".

It is almost childish to sit back and throw a little wish into the air, that things will stay as they are. They won't.
That is why Irish people are so upset with Brexit.... we can see the implications for violence re-emerging.

No amount of handwriting and wishful thinking will make it go away. Strategic thinking, dialogue and compromise- thats what's required.

I just don't understand people's mindsets over Ireland and never have. Why does it matter who owns and runs a country if they are both democracies.

There was a long history of prejudice and discrimination against the Catholics in Northern Ireland by the Stormont Government in both employment and housing. Catholics suffered great difficulties being employed in the public sector in Northern Ireland.

This was not down to educational attainment as there is a strong tradition of educational attainment within the Catholic community. While Northern Ireland outperforms the rest of the UK in exam performance, Catholic schools will generally dominate the top of the league tables for schools in NI.

I don't think John Hume is forgotten ( and his input into the Peace Process should never be forgotten ) but I often think Seamus Mallon should have got more credit for all he did for the peace Process.
I think integrated education is the way to go.

we take the whole island back

Oh dear.......

Take the whole island back 😂😂😂

Yeah, just like that. Because people would be so delighted to give up their freedom, which those of the past died to secure. Because Ireland is just that naughty little country that thinks it's independent and soo different, but should actually just return to the fold.

John ‘Lenin’, Xenia? I know he turned into a bit of a lefty in the Yoko Ono years but, come on, he wasn’t that extreme

Anyway, I agree with your basic point about all countries that are democracies being exactly the same. That’s why I think England should just accept the Brexit thing isn’t working and remain in the EU as part of Germany. England and Germany have similar cultural heritage, a shared passion for football and their languages have the same roots. I know there were a couple of wars here and there in the 20th century that a few Brits died in (didn’t really do British history in school, not sure what that was all about) but you know Germany and England are so similar these days and both democracies so why not just solve the Brexit crisis by merging the two countries into one? And you both have female leaders so they can be BFFs.

Welcome Angela Merkel as your new Chancellor with May as Vice-Chancellor! Sorry, Germany is a bigger country so I think they should take precedence in leadership, no big deal, i’m sure you understand.

Has anyone seen the shitty coverage of the attack on Gerry Adams' home - treating him like a diddums elder statesman when he endorsed this horrible crap on other people.

Why would UK schools teach anything about Irish history, BaronessBlonde?

I personally think it's a huge loss to people in the UK as they then have no understanding of the situation in Northern Ireland

Actually, my UK school taught loads about Irish history. And people in my part of the UK knew all about the situation in Northern Ireland.

Now, I'm from Northern Ireland, so there was a pretty good reason for this.

I just wanted to draw attention to the fact that it's not just the status of our neighbours to the south and west and a teeny bit north that people get confused about.

bellinisurge
My thought exactly, which I just observed to dh as we sat watching the news on RTE at 9 pm.
I will never forget the treatment of Jean Mc Conville and the other Disappeared.