To ask this man if this child is his daughter?

[wildsummerdreams]

I just saw a man carrying a child (she 3-4) against her will. She was throwing a tantrum and trying to free herself. It would seem like a normal scene if you have kids, but I could not help but think the worst, so I followed them and ask him if he was her dad. He stopped (good sign) looked at me and when he realised what I was thinking, told me to not be ridiculous. I asked the child directly if that was her dad, but she kept on crying. Then they wen off and he continue to carry her against her will. I watched them for a bit and took a picture of them just in case. Please tell me I'm not a total nutter and what would you have done or what to do if something like this happens.

The girl didn't have any shoes on and they were crossing Kentish Town high street.

People do worry about kids about to run it into roads and when they see behaviour that looks like they might, they apply the brakes, hopefully. Some will beep a horn or admonish kids and parents acting dangerously.

We aren't talking about an adult admonishing their children, we are talking about a child being forcefully lifted / moved, and of course that doesn't make someone bad, but it does make some people cautious as they try to ascertain the scene before them. It's not worse than a man who has locked his keys in a car Vs someone looking to break into a car. It's not wrong to check all is ok.

Sadly men are not equals in terms of risk assessment. They pose a greater risk. It's why most men have to modify their behaviour with children because despite being innocent, SOME men do bad things and we all have to adapt to assuage the fears that causes.

It's wrong to assume a man is guilty. It's not wrong to make sure he's innocent.

"Sadly men are not equals in terms of risk assessment. They pose a greater risk. It's why most men have to modify their behaviour with children because despite being innocent, SOME men do bad things and we all have to adapt to assuage the fears that causes."

This is an outrageous statement. It's the same as saying that most stabbings in London are carried out by non-whites so non-whites need to modify their behaviour because of the fear that causes.

How exactly are you suggesting that us fathers (the ones who stick with our wives and children and don't abandon them like the majority of white English lower income groups) should modify our behaviour?

Let me be very clear. I don't have to account to any random white English chav who accosts me on the street and I'm certainly not going to. Anyone who thinks that they have that sort of right just because I am a man needs to get over themselves.

@mormontsraven
Where are your figures for white working class males abandoning their children?

I am a father.
Let me tell you just some of the ways...

1. When a child falls (not your own child) we are reluctant to pick that child up because we are men.
2. When sat next to a child, not our own, we are wary of talking to them because it could be misinterpreted.
3. When we take photographs, we are wary of doing so in a public place near children or a school because of how it may look.

There are many other ways it affects us.

I it is not the same as saying blacks commit more crime, because that is a socio-economic issue that manifests itself through crime stats, but doesn't make black people criminals.

Men however commit abuse across all social divides. There is a clear correlation between sex and violence.
Children ARE more at risk from men than women even in abduction cases. Absolutely so in child sex cases.
Grim yes, sad yes, but it's true. If you can't see how that affects the behaviour of innocent men too, then there's little else I can say.

So you asked the child... If you had asked my daughter in a 'no' phase she would have said no to everything

are you hungry? no
are you tired? no
Are you her name? no
Are you a girl? no
are you a boy? no
are you a giraffe? no
are you still not her name? no

etc etc

I walk ok the opposite side of a street to a woman if she is alone in the dark. Why do I do that? Because I understand her fears of what some men might do. It's called empathy. I modify my behaviour because I am aware of the fears of others.
I modify my behaviour with children in the same way. I don't approach a child to offer them sweets even though it's a nice gesture. I don't give a babysitter a ride home alone.
Teachers won't be in a room one to one with a child if it can be avoided... All behavioural changes to avoid accusation.

Buster72: Here you go:
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/223251/Children_both_parents_income_FINAL.pdf

TornFromTheInside: How exactly can a father modify his behaviour when he is with his own 4 year old who is crying (not screaming, just crying because she has been woken up and is tired)?

The problem with people like you is that you would give carte blanche to every under-educated chav to accost fathers. Other people's irrational beliefs are not a basis for interfering with my children and I.

If you want to get into propensity to commit crime, the black population of London in 2010 was just over 12%, yet black males were responsible for 54% of street crimes and 59% of gun crimes. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_Kingdom) The propensity of black males to commit crime relative to white males is higher than the propensity of males to commit crime relative to females. And of course, it should be noted that the criminal justice system discriminates against males, e.g. lower sentencing for females when convicted for same offence as males.

Someone reported my exH to the police when he had to carry one of the children - screaming toddler - home from the park. Police followed him home, asked loads of questions along the lines of 'who is this man?' 'where's your mummy!' I was at work. Few days later followed up with a visit from social services. DC was a nightmare & it made exH v worried about taking him out alone again, at the time I felt aggrieved that curtain twitchers had reported us because of a toddler having a tantrum but could appreciate their concern - although agree with PP they probably wouldn't have done it if it had been me rather than his Dad carting him off down the road.

I hope people whose instinct is to intervene won't be put off by the irresponsible posters on here calling the op a nutter and saying their husbands would have been furious.

The irony is that those posters who refer to others as nutters are completely oblivious to their own foolishness in marrying such ill-tempered men prone to angry outbursts.

Seriously what a numpty you’ve made of yourself...poor man been accosted and treated like a kidnapped because he wasn’t lettitn his child get away with whatever tantrum she was having,

I'd imagine a real kidnapper would placate the child not carry them away kicking and screaming. I mean all the stories I've heard the kidnapper lures the child with sweets and promises and once they realise mummy or daddy is gone they say "we'll help you find them" and act like that's what they're doing.

How exactly can a father modify his behaviour when he is with his own 4 year old who is crying (not screaming, just crying because she has been woken up and is tired)?

Nobody said you should. If you calmed down and read what I actually said, you'd realise that.

I said all decent men modify their behaviour because they know that some men are bad men, and so we behaviour in ways that try to minimise people fearing us. It's what decent men do.

If you are having a problem with your child, it happens. Sometimes a child can scream. But you are suggesting nobody should wonder, nobody should check, nobody should care. They care about the safety of children, and if in the rare case your child is having a tantrum, then is it really such a harship to assure someone you are not assaulting or kidnapping the child?
How often do you really think it's going to happen?

If preventing the abduction of one child costs me 2 minutes on the very VERY rare occasion that a child has to be restrained, then isn't that a fair price to pay?

It is very rare I say something like this, but, what are you on Mormontsraven?! The two women were wrong in accosting you, but you are turning this into a whole class/race issue!

Oh, and btw it is "interfering with my children and me", not I.

"I'd imagine a real kidnapper would placate the child not carry them away kicking and screaming. I mean all the stories I've heard the kidnapper lures the child with sweets and promises and once they realise mummy or daddy is gone they say "we'll help you find them" and act like that's what they're doing."

Exactly. There is no evidence that a crying four year old is more likely to be in the process of being abducted than a non-crying four year old. It's also completely inappropriate for strangers to block the path, go up to a four year old, ask him/her if the person with him/her is his/her daddy and try to physically grab the child away from the accompanying adult. The right approach would be to ask the adult if everything is okay.

White female chavs believe they can act in an absolutely appalling manner because they are women and I am a man. Well, I'm not going to tolerate that any longer.

It is a class issue. Fatherless families are the norm among white English lower income groups and women from those groups are conditioned to see something abnormal in a man accompanying his own child. I've provided the statistics in an earlier post.

Pmsl. Of course your wife is a SAHM but they "don't work". 😂

I probably would say nothing if in that situation because I don’t like confronting strangers (particularly those of the angry variety)

BUT I don’t think you did the wrong thing. You felt uneasy about what you saw and you intervened.

He probably was her dad. But what if he wasn’t? What if you later saw something in the news? Better to offend someone than watch a child being abducted and say nothing imo.

Hopefully that father would also appreciate the fact that your confrontation came from a place of concern once he calmed down.

No- you are not a nutter OP

Some children are hurt in their homes. if it saves 1 child it's worth banging on front doors demanding to see if any kids inside are ok.

ALL the homes in the UK because if you stop before you check that last one that might be the one where the child is in danger.

Don't let down a child by missing out one house!

Well done OP. You bravely stepped in to help a child you thought may be in trouble. I applaud you for that. It takes guts. Too many would avert their eyes and scuttle past not wanting to get involved.

This.

It is illegal to take photos of other people's children!

No it isn't.

We aren't talking about random checks though are we?
We are talking about an ambiguous situation that presents itself, and that it's not wrong to check that situation.

If a woman screams next door, will you ignore that or investigate? Shall we just not bother?

Tell Denise Bulger that we should not intervene. Two young kids couldn't possibly snatch and murder another in broad daylight could they? Nah.

We’ve learnt nothing from the bystanders in the Sarah Payne case

There weren't any.

YANBU. If I was in the guys situation and someone stopped me and asked what you asked, I’d thank them. You hear stories of kids being dragged off all the time and no one batting an eyelid.

conditioned to see something abnormal in a man accompanying his own child. I've provided the statistics in an earlier post.
Mormontsraven you provided no such evidence at all.

Who is determining 'chav', you?

P.s. photographing other people's kids is legal. There is no law preventing it.

I would be very happy to explain if someone questioned what I was doing with a rigid, screaming four yr old.
Sometimes something just feels a bit off. There’s no harm in checking. Like if I saw someone walking out of a house with a tv at night etc. I’m sure if they’re the owner they’d be happy to explain and grateful someone thought to check.