To ask if you think it is controversial to say that a person with male genitalia should not be allowed to use changing rooms used by people with vaginas?

[aaarrrggghhhh]

www.theargus.co.uk/news/16334391.trans-women-are-still-males-with-male-genitalia/

The Argus (Brighton newspaper) says that it is controversial for someone to say this:

"many trans women are still males with male genitalia, many are sexually attracted to females, and they should not be in places where females undress or sleep in a completely unrestricted way.”

The definition of controversial is likely to give rise to a public disagreement.

Do you think it is likely that most people would disagree with the statement that people with penises should not use the changing rooms which people with vaginas are using?

I think it is worrying actually. Why do biological Males with no intention of transitioning, hell bent on accessing woman's safe spaces. Women are vulnerable and need that safe area. What about women who are afraid of men, those who have been raped, abused or suffered at the hands of men. I now year that woman's refuges to to accept women who are really biological men. Wow just wow. So women fleeing from domestic violence and abuse, have the added worry that there could be a man in their safe space.

OP, what did you hope to achieve from this thread? So far I can't see anything that hasn't been said countless times before on the hundreds of previous threads on this subject on MN.

Just like dozens of other threads, then.

It's not controversial for most people to think like that. I have asked men to leave our women's only tube station waiting room in my time - politely of course (they weren't men in a dress with doubt over their gender but just men who didn't read the sign) - they all leave when I tackle them.

Op people with vaginas are women btw

I think the problem is that the media serms saturated with the kind of people who think you can change sex. Whereas no-one I know in real life thinks this.

Look at the recent BBC survey where a considerably higher proportion of people in the organisation identified as transgender than in the general population. Hmmm.

It's 'controversial' in pretty much the same way as evolution is seen to be by creationists. Objective reality on one side, subjective belief on the other.

Before you flounce off you need to learn how to debate.

Pisters have answered your questions many times. You however have not.

Why is that?

Posters obviously

YABU especially if there are private cubicles and private parts will not be on display

Single sex hospital wards
Women's Refuges
Women's Prisons
Women's Sport
Rape crisis services
Girl Guides

The compromising of Womens' privacy and safety is about far, far more than changing rooms 🙄

they identify as female and go through all the effort of modifying their appearance and dressing as a female (and suffering all the related abuse for it, including the views of many fellow women in threads with as this) then they are unlikely to be a sexual predator or similar.

^ Womens' prisons? It's surely easy enough to inform oneself in this day and age - look up reports and see the issues there have already been.

I hope those 13 year old girls and their parents are very proud of themselves.

Good on them. Women always need to stick up for their rights.

I hope he apologised.

He didn’t apologise. He took to social media to crow about putting them in their place, the wanker.

@NotMe321 - to see whether or not (for sure in a completely nonscientific way) the Argus newspaper was correct when it states that the standard view is that people with male genitalia should be able to use women only designated areas and the view that they should not is the controversial view (i.e. likely to be disagreed with view).

The Feminism board can indeed be somewhat of an echo chamber - so I was interested to see what the view in AIBU was. I did wonder whether I was simply wrong in my factual understanding of what most people thought on the topic.

If you put aside the content of the topic - it is surely worthy of note that a mainstream local newspaper is incorrectly reporting.

In a debate that has some nuanced and complex aspects it helps no one for discussion on it to be reported incorrectly.

I think that the role of the media in public debate is hugely significant.

My own view is that "transgender" issues have been hijacked as a means of imposing social control - mostly over women. This helps no one - neither women nor the people who are suffering significantly due to complex issues about their relationship with their bodies and rigid social gender stereotypes.

@chumbawumbawumba - what I wanted to hear was what people think that most people think about the issue.

Whether or not you agree with them - do you think that most people think that people with male genitalia should be able to use women designated spaces or do you think that most people think that they shouldn't?

I’m sooo very tired of this but scared the Trans lot are going to get their way because “we all have to be so PC “

Trans people are ‘getting their way’, rightly. If equality between people who are trans and people who aren’t trans frightens you, I suggest you examine why that is. Here’s some evidence of how seriously the government are taking this:

www.gov.uk/government/news/government-announces-plans-to-reform-process-of-changing-legal-gender

Is there a real example of where a truly committed trans female has committed a sexual assault in a female changing room or toilet? I suspect not and if there are cases they are a tiny tiny proportion of all trans women

Trans woman retain a male offending pattern. But no worries, I presume the people in the link below weren't "truly committed trans females".........

transcrimeuk.com/2017-convictions/

No true trans...

I agree with everything @LindseyKola has said.

I don’t usually post on these threads any more because there is one every fucking day and it’s depressing not only how transphobic mumsneg is, but that this transphobic has the tacit support of the mods and that there is no point debating this subject since the transphobes don’t care to listen to anything but their own opinion.

If equality between people who are trans and people who aren’t trans frightens you,

It's actually about biological males trampling on women's rights and disrespecting us, and everyone scrambling to centre them, but you do you.

the transphobes don’t care to listen to anything but their own opinion.

Bring on the debate! I for one am always happy to listen. Not promising I'll be convinced by your arguments though.

@LyndseyKola - but that's a sound bite isn't it. I am passionate about equality.

With respect to access to single sex spaces how do you describe "equality"?

My starting point is that for women and girls to have "equality" of access to public life it is crucial that they have access to spaces where their dignity and risk of sexual assault is as minimised as possible. This equality is significantly compromised by people with male genitalia (regardless of how they choose to identify themselves) being permitted into that space.

There are indeed also significant issues about the equality of access of transgender people to public life. But these are not more important than the rights of women and girls. Also - importantly - there are other mechanisms of ensuring this equality without compromising on the rights of women and girls.

And once again the charge is made that Mumsnet is transphobic without a single example cited to back that claim up. Quelle surprise.

@RhiWrites - but how am I being transphobic? If anything, I am being penisphobic.

To be clear - are you saying that for a woman to say that she does not want unclad male genitalia in a space were she will be undressed is being transphobic?