To ask if you think it is controversial to say that a person with male genitalia should not be allowed to use changing rooms used by people with vaginas?

[aaarrrggghhhh]

www.theargus.co.uk/news/16334391.trans-women-are-still-males-with-male-genitalia/

The Argus (Brighton newspaper) says that it is controversial for someone to say this:

"many trans women are still males with male genitalia, many are sexually attracted to females, and they should not be in places where females undress or sleep in a completely unrestricted way.”

The definition of controversial is likely to give rise to a public disagreement.

Do you think it is likely that most people would disagree with the statement that people with penises should not use the changing rooms which people with vaginas are using?

lamagrey

Typically disgraceful behaviour from him.

Rhi it’s not transphobic to not support self ID. It’s not transphobic to be angry that a man can self ID and enter women’s safe areas.

I fail to see how on Earth you can’t see that. Why not debate with posters instead of making untrue insulting and silly sweeping generalisations.

I think that’s exactly what Rhi is saying with either male complacency and bullying or female idiocy

Honestly, a trans male in the women's toilets might freak me out if they passed for male. A quick explanation would probably make me relax because growing up female would probably make them less of a threat than a man.

The problem of men in women's spaces goes beyond the toilets and changing room, I get why this comes up a lot because it's an everyday thing for basically everyone but we can't forget the women who can't share with men for various reasons.

I feel it's important to be able to request a female doctor who will probably have personal experience of what I'm going through of be able to better sympathise.
I feel it's important that women can have a safe space away from men when they have suffered abuse at the hands of men.
I feel it's important that in competitive sport women aren't at a disadvantage because they have to compete against a man.
I feel it's important that men who want space away from women for valid reasons can have this.

Self ID threatens these things.

Fwiw, I don't really have a problem with - and here's the problem - genuine trans women being in the women's loos or changing rooms, not sure about the other situations, but I do think there needs to be a certain amount of hoop jumping to keep women's spaces safe.

I would definitely be all for a 3rd space which we all know would become the overflow for the women's toilets when busy

Honestly, a trans male in the women's toilets might freak me out if they passed for male. A quick explanation would probably make me relax because growing up female would probably make them less of a threat than a man.

But what if they were in fact an actual man - penis and all - and just told you they were a passing transman, complete with vagina?

Is that safer for women than the idea that a predator would have to put on a dress?

Another one saying safe and secure cubicles please, then no-one has to give a shit about what's hiding in someone else's pants.

I'm not getting into all the other scenarios, because this thread is about changing rooms.

@RhiWrites

I've thought a bit more about what my phobia is - and its a phobia of someone with a penis sexually assaulting - anywhere along the spectrum from looking at me undressed to actually raping me.

The way in which the person with that penis identifies is totally irrelevant to my phobia. So its definitely not a "trans" phobia.

Do you think my penisphobia is a legitimate reason for the exclusion of penises from places where I will be undressing?

Yeah... @RatRolyPoly I don't know then, it's complicated but we can't say women go in the women's and trans men, trans women and men go in the men's can we?

If only people could all be trusted to be honest.

I wish men would take no for an answer.

@olderthanyouthink "Fwiw, I don't really have a problem with - and here's the problem - genuine trans women being in the women's loos or changing rooms"

And thats the fucker of this whole thing. At the end of the day, most peoples default position is to be bigoted when feeling threatened. I may of course be wrong - but I predict an almighty backlash and ultimately all this will be worse for "genuine" transgender people - whose lives must be fucking hard enough already.

With regards to self id, Those who are shouting transphobic, and dismissing and minimalising women's valid concerns, really add support to our worries about it. There should be free discussing regarding this, and the pros and cons. Women should be listened to, not shouted down. This does not mean just changing rooms, but other women only safe spaces, such as: Refuges, changing areas, facilities, toilets, swimming areas or sessions that are single sex, Prisons.

Those who are saying that our concerns are far fetched and not likely to happen, it is all hysterical, are happening currently.

prachet I wish men would take no for an answer

This with bells on.

*'s never been a problem for you, but if you;d bothered to listen to other women its certainly a problem for them.
Cubicles in a mixed space can leave you trapped in a cubicle with a predator outside waiting for you.

And schools have a legal duty to provide single sex toilets for children over the age of 8. Girls want privacy when they are dealing with periods, and there is nothing wrong with that.*

It is perfectly OK for me to have a different opinion to you thanks very much. A different opinion does not mean a person hasn't bothered engaging with the issues.

Where i work it is unisex toilets and no 'predatory' incidents thus far.

My kids school having unisex toilets has never been a problem. I am sure they are not breaking any laws. It is very common for toilets to be unisex now at high schools. Sometimes they have a division down the centre but some don't. My girls never had a problem.

If the cubicles are secure and lockable and have sanitary facilities then there is no issue with periods etc.

As the mother of girls your welcoming of male bodied people into the ladies toilets is even more incomprehensible, PinkCrystal
Long may it not be a problem for you.

Nope I am saying provide unisex toilets. Lots of places manage it with no problem. As long as they have secure cubicles.

I notice people keep talking about unisex places with private cubicles. But it's not always that straight forward is it? I remember being in a shop that only had an open space with 4 private cubicles. Tried a dress on. Zip got stuck, bottom petticoat in the dress got caught up in it, resulting in my bottom (thank god I was wearing granny knickers) being partially exposed. I could not for the life of me get it unstuck. There was one male and one female shop assistant downstairs. The girl must have popped out to lunch or something cause the guy called up asking if I needed help. Luckily there was a girl browsing the rails who jumped in.

Now this was a few years ago and I'm a grown woman with children. But I also have experienced rape, and I was still very uncomfortable at the thought of exposing my body to a man, even though I know he could care less. Private cubicles are great as long as you stay in them. If you need to step outside them into a unisex shared area for some reason, then it's not so great to see individuals with penises walking around.

As long as you have a penis I don't want you in my safe spaces. It's not personal.

With regards to unisex toilets,No it isen't, men might not want women around when they are standing at a urinal, or some women might be uncomfortable with it. Some men might not want women in their spaces. It is ludricous.

@TigerJoy

And that is the crux of the matter - it is not at all about identity. You must be able to understand that. How can you not understand that?

Men aren't excluding from same sex dormitories or changing rooms so women can all get together and talk about their inner womanliness - its so that women are protected when they are vulnerable from the class of person who has the capacity to assault them.

It is about the physical threat that people with penises - as a class - pose to people with vaginas. Transwomen are as likely or as unlikely to sexually assault someone as any other person with a penis. It is about people with penis as a group.

I couldn't care in the least how a person with a penis identifies - I don't want them in my space while I am getting undressed or sleeping because of the physical attributes of their body.

Having trans women in a women's changing room doesn't open it up to cis men because it is not about genitalia but about identity

Again, you're missing the potential that self-id opens up. You mention the transwomen who 'live as women' and look like women. It's not really them we're talking about. Look online and see the hordes of angry, violent men - of varying 'identities' - threatening women with violence merely for voicing opinions. See the men who have already attacked women for this.

See the offenders in male prisons declaring themselves trans - and then demanding to be placed in women's prisons. That has already actually happened - and women were assaulted.

But self-id no longer requires that as a precondition for trans status - THAT is the whole point of my objection. It opens up women's safe spaces to men who merely have to claim they're women. Predatory men will do so.

Sex matters. Biology matters.

Tiger you are totally missing the point, that is the problem, it is about 'identity' so a biological man could identify as a woman on Tuesday, and use a woman's space like a toilet and changing rooms, and go back to being a man on Wednesday, without transitioning to becoming a woman. This makes women very vulnerable indeed and and not protected, especially if the 'man' in question was an abuser wanting to take advantage of the self id bill to attack and abuse women. It has happened, it is not far fetched, but a distinct reality.

What Caribou has said within prisons, abusers and sex offenders will take advantage of this to abuse women, it gives them more scope to do this.

OP, the idea that men don't belong in women's sex segregated spaces is entirely uncontroversial among everyone I know, including my DPs, my DSs, their girlfriends and their mates. Both my middle aged brothers are extremely outspoken on the subject. The words "creeps" and "perverts" came up.

Tiger.

If you are still reading please could you answer the above posts. Address the feelings of women please and their legitimate concerns???