To be saddened by the transphobia and homophobia on Mumsnet?

[spannablue]

I used to come on here for a good laugh. But now there's just so much casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish om here!

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space? Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed.

We're talking about a tiny minority of people who are trans. But what I'm seeing on Mumsnet amounts to collective bullying.

When did it become ok to be so judgmental? Have you ever actually met a trans person and listened to them with an open mind?

There are people of all kinds on social media - trans, not trans, gay, straight, bi, lollipop ladies, lawyers, teachers, academics and bus drivers. Some talk a load of crap. And others engage in intelligent, informed, openminded debate. Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with these people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

OP, have a

In fact have the whole packet

Might stop you talking such utter nonsense

Thanks tripping and dottier

Thats what i thought but i know some people think differently

Re the baby thing i have heard people say that gay men shouldn't have children (adopt, im taking the surrogacy bit out) but that gay women are ok to...but those people were twats

The top 20 threads in FemChat right now are almost all about lambasting trans people. Is this really the most important ovewhelming nothing-else-matters feminist issue in UK right now?

It's not remotely informative... it is relentless.

ps to OP: I reckon most MNers aren't part of the bullying & like me, just try to dodge it all.

Just wanted to say I broadly agree with you, OP. I am shocked by the vitriol, lack of compassion and level of obsession of some posters, and also by the sweeping generalisations about men and women that I read on here.

I have dipped a toe in the debate and I now think there's no point. There is a core group of articulate, determined and intelligent women who have made up their mind what they think and are utterly closed to debate. There is no point in arguing with them, they know what they think and are not interested in debate, just in shouting other people down.

For the record, I do think there are some aspects of the debate that need discussion and I think it's a good thing the debate is reaching the mainstream. I think mumsnet have been brave and principled in trying to host that debate.

I don't think we'll ever know how opinions on mumsnet are divided, but I suspect the vast majority don't agree with the transphobia but aren't obsessed enough to spend their whole time on line debating it.

Also, have been accused of being a MRA when posted similar views before. For the record, as it matters so much to some people, am a 50 something, biologically female, lifelong feminist.

It’s not “lambasting trans people” to want single sex facilities and services and to be concerned about people with penises (trans or not) using or providing services that were previously single sex.

You can’t be an academic. Academics wouldn’t say such ill-informed things. You probably read a few articles, got Microsoft word open and wrote down some ‘stats’, deduced that MN was transphobic etc etc and decided to come on here to rile people up. And I do know a male, who ‘identified’ as female so he could perv at women in changing rooms/toilets. HTH.

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space
See your very first point demonstrates how wilfully misinformed you are about the issues involved here, so there is not much point replying to the rest of your comments. You haven’t bothered to find out what women are concerned about in the threads you dismiss.

You can’t be an academic. Academics wouldn’t say such ill-informed things.

Absolutely classic. You don't agree with me so you can't be who you say you are.

Academics come in every shade of political opinion. Some academics will agree with you and some won't.

I think what troubles me most about both extreme sides of the debate is that to you, your opinions are facts. Which is why you cannot engage in any kind of meaningful debate.

YANBU.

I think feminist chat might as well change its name to trans issues and be done with it. There's hardly anything else on there, and even if it is someone pops up with a trans comment pretty quick. It's sad because there are other issues affecting women at the moment but no one seems interested.

You can’t be an academic. Academics wouldn’t say such ill-informed things.

Absolutely classic. You don't agree with me so you can't be who you say you are. Academics come in every shade of political opinion. Some academics will agree with you and some won't.

The post you quoted said nothing about the content of what they posted. It was about the casual throwing around of so-called 'statistics' without any source or citation or justification.

You didn't understand their post, and you don't understand what it is to be an academic. Yes, their opinions may cover all parts of the spectrum, but to be trained as an academic is to be incredibly aware of and careful about backing up and providing solid evidence for anything you say.

but I suspect the vast majority don't agree with the transphobia but aren't obsessed enough to spend their whole time on line debating it.

Wasnt there a thread recently that said basically this same thing and litrially hundreds of users, names that never post on trans rights issues, came out and said they were with the GC females and were worried about self ID and the erosion of female spaces.

However I would agree transphobic is the minority because being against self id is not transphobic.

The top 20 threads in FemChat right now are almost all about lambasting trans people. Is this really the most important ovewhelming nothing-else-matters feminist issue in UK right now?

Yes, because at its heart it’s about trampling on women’s rights. Including “trans” people in the sex category of women requires all women to give up their rights. It’s also about free speech. Women are being told they are bigots for not believing a person can change their sex. Women are told men (with penis in tact) can also be women. We are being referred to as menstruators and womb bearers and cis women. The language used to describe women is slowly changing. The language to describe men is immutable.

These are all issues about women’s rights. What else do you want feminists to discuss? Lack of sanitary bins in the workplace??

tbf, this IS the biggest threat to womens hard won rights we've ever seen, because its literally changing the definition of woman to mean " a feeling of femininity", it is being suggested that we allow any man who thinks they feel like a woman" to access womens sports, use their male entitlement to override and access womens quotas in workplaces, that were specifically designed to redress the woeful underrepresentation of women (in favour of men) and now these places are being taken up by males which leaves women even further underrepresented.
It leaves women unable to challenge a male in their toilets. It leaves women unable to escape from men into a female only space in nightclubs if necessary. It means vulnerable women could be placed on a mixed sex ward. It means that Ian Huntley could be moved to a womens prison.

Its just fucking shit for women. A few straights who like to consider themselves a bit queer (or something) are more than willing to throw women under the bus without even considering the potential impact on women and girls if this goes through.
Most of them havent even lived long enough to realise the bullshit men will do.

This is before we even start worrying about the effect on our young people who are being told that if they dont relate to gender stereotypes, then they are possibly actually a different sex, and being groomed and psyched up by fucking tumblr etc whilst at a vulnerable age to start on a route of "transition", hormones, etc, even surgery, and sterilising themselves, for a fad that most people will grow out of if we just watch and wait and allow it to pass.

Dont get me wrong, im as pleased as anyone that the kids are not all self harming anymore, but in so many ways, i think this gender bullshit is worse, because its in direct conflict with some of the most basicn womens rights.

Most of us here were trans allies at one point. We just actually did the research

I too am troubled by the degree of vitriol on here OP.
I am gender critical. I wish we lived in a world where anyone could dress/behave as a man/woman and no-one would give a damn. But we don't. The transpeople I know (including one of my own (now adult) children) are essentially disabled by their dysphoria. Transitioning has definitely helped all of them.

I started engaging in the feminist debates on MN when there was a clear goal: a demand for discussion on the proposed change to the GRA to self-ID rather than the current 2-year wait and diagnosis. I strongly believe that there are now 2 'classes' of trans person: the truly dysphoric transperson, and those who prefer to dress in ways considered typical of the opposite sex. Non-binary and other 'grades' of transperson are still identifying out of their 'societal norm' and their struggles are just as real. For the sake of my own transchild I want the diagnosis criteria to remain. For the sake of my own and my daughters' safety I do not want self ID'd transwomen to be able to circumvent the safeguards in the equalities act.

But the discussions on MN no longer seem to engage with these issues so much as the principle of transgender. I don't see transgenderism as a male plot, particularly given that most young transgender people are natal women. I find the tone aggressive and depressing and don't think that it will help the cause at all.

@Dottierichardson

Thsnks for your replies.

Of course single sex parents can be as good or better than traditional biological parents.

But alot of people feel a child should not willfully be denied one or more of its biological parents. Adoption is different because the parent/s are either dead, unwilling or unfit. So we need to find a substitute for the child, and any living adults can fill that role.

But in surrogacy unless the IP's gametes are used, the child is being denied its biological parent/s on purposes, and some people feel that could be damaging for the child.

I understand why people have different views on this, but I still don't understand why it is homiphobic to have that view. Yes it effects mainly gay couples, but is the opinion not pro-child welfare and anti man.

Saying 'a child shouldn't be raised by a same sex couple' is not the same as 'children need a mother'. I find the latter comment just as offensive to single/widowed dad's.

YANBU. The trans phobia here is ridiculous. I hate the middle class mumsnet brand of feminism in general. Basically only concerned with very trivial issues that happen to marginally affect their lives and completely oblivious to others who have a much harder time.

I remember a thread where a woman was told she shouldn't go swimming with her disabled 9 year old son because it made other women uncomfortable being naked in the communal changing area with him there (despite the fact there were private cubicles available for the other women to use).

The hate for trans people is ridiculous too. Getting hysterical about being called cis-gendered who the hell cares?

tbf, this IS the biggest threat to womens hard won rights we've ever seen, because its literally changing the definition of woman to mean " a feeling of femininity",

^^ This. It's also the week the Government kicked off a long awaited consultation - so it's bound to be a hot topic at the minute.

I think also think feminist chat gets a lot of GF stirring on this topic.

Though you should definite report transphobia seen as it's in nobody’s best interests to it on the boards.

Though women expressing concerns about self-ID and implications to them and their DDs you’ll probably have to put up with as it’s not transphobia - its genuine concerns which I find irritating when dismissed.

Personally my concerns are less focus on trans people and more on predatory men exploiting self- ID to gain access to women and children and bypass existing safeguarding though there are posters who don't want that debated either.

what is transphobic about questioning the potential abuse of 'self-certification' by non-trans individuals and institutions to the detriment of all women, including transwomen?

I don't particularly think any genuine transwoman is any more likely to attack me or rape me or anything else than any other woman or man. I do think that there are plenty of men who will use such legislation as a means by which they can abuse women, attack and rape women.

And as I always say in this debate...women are not just women. They may also, for example, be muslim. I am not sure I can support the notion that a muslim woman should shut up and put and be intimately examined by a medical professional who also happens to be a transwoman. Who's rights are more important in such a situation?

Women should not have to put up with fear, abuse, attack and rape in women-only spaces.

pitterPatterOfBigFeet

No it’s the hate of women we object to. Just like in your last sentence getting hysterical about being called cis women who cares

We care women care I fucking care and you can fuck right off with your cis bollocks. I am a woman. End of.

PitterPatter
How is trying to ensure the safety of vulnerable women a trivial issue?
Many women in the prison system are particularly vulnerable and yet their rights are being overridden by men potentially self IDing.

Women who have been raped or abused are vulnerable - who speaks up for them and ensures they still have safe spaces?

Would I have an issue with sharing a changing room with a transitioned trans woman. No - because she is in the right changing room for her (in fact I probably wouldn't notice that she was there). Would I have an issue with sharing a changing room with a person with a penis just because he said he was a woman - yes.

Hysterical
I used to be a supporter but the tone stops me supporting the cause.

Keep 'em coming, I only need a couple more for a full house.

YANBU OP I feel exactly the same. If half the anonymous keyboard warriors spouted their hateful crap IRL people would quickly distance themselves. They have got too much time on their hands to be so very hateful and god forbid anyone disagree. It's like being at high school with all the bullying.

Hope they never do anything in their own lives which goes against the MN consensus! God forbid they would be on the receiving end of all their negativity and hatred!

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/outrage-transgender-prisoner-living-woman-12022675

Female prisoners are having to share showers with a non transitioned trans woman.

“The women inmates have had to accept that Stewart is being allowed to live as a woman, despite not having had surgery.

“That means she is in the showers at the same time as other inmates, which some have found quite awkward.