To be saddened by the transphobia and homophobia on Mumsnet?

[spannablue]

I used to come on here for a good laugh. But now there's just so much casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish om here!

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space? Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed.

We're talking about a tiny minority of people who are trans. But what I'm seeing on Mumsnet amounts to collective bullying.

When did it become ok to be so judgmental? Have you ever actually met a trans person and listened to them with an open mind?

There are people of all kinds on social media - trans, not trans, gay, straight, bi, lollipop ladies, lawyers, teachers, academics and bus drivers. Some talk a load of crap. And others engage in intelligent, informed, openminded debate. Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with these people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

theconversation.com/factcheck-are-children-better-off-with-a-mother-and-father-than-with-same-sex-parents-82313

"Overall, the study found children and adolescents raised by same-sex parents in Australia fared as well as children of opposite-sex parents, and better on measures of general behaviour, general health and family cohesion."

Whereismymind having been brought up by non-biological parents and having an adopted DSC I would obviously disagree, there are many documented cases in which biological parents have failed to adequately parent, just as there are many in which they've done brilliantly. If we say that 'biological' is always best start to be insulting to those who adopt and those who are adopted. I said 'potentially' homophobic for a reason, the argument about parenting and biology often invoked in relation to gay men.

I come on here for a week or so at a time with gaps of several months and all this trans stuff that I've seen the last few days just looks like bigotry to me.

I think that's fair Dottie. When words are written down it can be easier to read them as blunter as there's less room for nuance.

Homophobia and Transphobia are two separate issues. I haven't seen much homophobia on mumsnet.

There is a difference between transphobia and being gender critical. There is also a difference between transphobia and being scared that men will use Self-ID to gain access to women's spaces.

If Self-ID comes in, someone very male presenting can claim to be a woman and use women's facilities with no problem. This is worrying to some people.

A major political party has given the role of "woman's officer" to a teenager who has lived the vast majority of their life as a male. This person does not have a GRC. Effectively, they have given this post to a man. Personally, I do not think someone in this position can speak for women or accurately explain the issues they face in society. This is worrying to some people.

Some people are worried about young children being pushed down experimental medical pathways when it is possible they are just questioning or may be not typically presenting their gender due to other issues e.g. autism.

Some people feel that some things involved with being transgender are specifically promoting gender stereotypes.

Please read more about the suicide statistic myths here: www.transgendertrend.com/the-suicide-myth/

waffly can you expand on your bigotry comment?

there are many documented cases in which biological parents have failed to adequately parent, just as there are many in which they've done brilliantly

You make it sound as though it is 50:50 Anyway, just because some biological parents do a bad job, it doesn’t mean we should conclude that biology means nothing and put all babies on the open market available to the highest (richest) bidder.

I’m talking about commercial surrogacy, I don’t know your personal situation or how your adoption came about and wouldn’t want to pry. But don’t tell me people buy babies through surrogacy because sometimes biological parenting doesn’t work out well.

2Upup I wasn't telling 'you' anything, if you read my post and the thread you will see was having a direct discussion with another poster. Nor was I addressing commercial surrogacy at that point, if you read through the post you will see that I have raised the fact that it is a complex issue. Nor was I positing that surrogacy is better or worse than biological parenting so not sure why you are assuming that? Whether you pry or not is of no issue I will give out information or not depending on my own considerations, however again if you read my post I didn't say I myself was adopted, only that I was raised by non-biological parents, not necessarily the same thing.

I notice the OP has not returned.

2Upup I think you are conflating the part of the discussion I was having with someone else about conception with the part about parenting, which are two very different things. I hope you are not saying, as you could be seen to, that women who are infertile and adopt or women in relationships that are not capable (for whatever reason) of producing children without surrogacy/artificial insemination/fertility treatments /adoption are automatically less capable parents because their child is not being raised by wholly 'biological' parents? Even people who do have 'biological' children, because of economic reasons, essentially co-parent with nannies/schools/nurseries/child-minders and so on...Parenting is often a shared endeavour. However I think you are saying that you think 'biology' trumps everything. In that case are you saying that, for example, that a child raised by a biological parent and a non-biological parent in a gay relationship is better off than a child raised by heterosexual adoptive parents? Or is it just gay parents you have a problem with?

dottie when I said your adoption I meant the adoption of your child. I assumed you yourself weren’t adopted otherwise you wouldn’t have made the distinction.

If you don’t want people to respond to your posts on a public forum, maybe send private messages to those you do wish to communicate with.

Ladyflop I don't know what your views are but your suggestion that trans/gay/queer/lesbian/non-binary people are not 'normal' is discriminatory and I have reported your post. And that OP is what you do when you see something on MN that is problematic. However it's not what you do when people are genuinely debating/airing their concerns.

2up happy to communicate but you responded to the second half of a conversation, so if you don't want to misunderstand/be misunderstood when contributing to a forum please read through the thread!

are you saying that, for example, that a child raised by a biological parent and a non-biological parent in a gay relationship is better off than a child raised by heterosexual adoptive parents?.

I’m saying neither of these things and am not sure why you are presenting me with a binary choice. Adopted children already exist and need parents. Children procured through surrogacy have been created with the intention of denying them a relationship with their mother. How are the two in any way connected?

Gay or straight, I am wholly against the commoditisation of women’s bodies and the buying and selling of human life. I think it is wrong to remove a newborn baby from its birth mother, except in rare circumstances of child protection.

You can twist that up any way you like. I don’t need to be educated out of my opinion.

2up did you read the link I made up thread re same sex parents make just as good, and sometimes better parents? You haven't mentioned since about biological parents being better so I'm wondering if you have changed your mind/accept your assertion was incorrect?

2up It seems that you don't want to read through the thread, so I have pasted below what I actually said about surrogacy: I did not come down as for or against. if after reading what I actually said you still cannot see that, I suggest what you do need is a class on 'textual analysis'. I do not have time to go through this with you further. I do not have any interest in educating you or anyone else I am interested in informed, reasoned and reasonable discussion with informed reasonable/reasoned people, most of whom have, as I am about to do, now gone to bed.

'The surrogacy issue is complicated because it does become  about competing 'rights', there are a number of concerns/arguments re: surrogacy in relation to the potential exploitation of the bodies of low income women/women of colour outside the West etc...In which case whose rights come first? But the debates are not about gay men using surrogates, they are about anyone using them. Also there is the issue of surrogacy excluding low income people, it's a very expensive business so if it's a right to have children then that raises the issue of whether or not surrogacy should be a funded service. In addition there are those who believe commercial surrogacy is turning babies into products that are being bought and sold on the market, so see a human rights issue arising. None of these debates are that easy to resolve:

www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2017/mar/28/cross-border-surrogacy-exploiting-low-income-women-as-biological-resources

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/25/surrogacy-sweden-ban

Sorry Tripping didn't see you were still around, you obviously come under the 'reasoned/reasonable' category. Have a good night!

Just popped back on as I couldn't sleep. Good night!

Oh, a quarter of kids who come out as trans commit suicide? Fuck off. Your lies are irresponsible and dangerous.

I think screaming -phobia everytime serious issues that affect society in general are discussed is to confine mumsnet to a site where recipes are swapped. Why can we not talk about surrogacy or the implications of giving strong drugs with serious side-effects to otherwise healthy children? About what it means for a traumatised woman not to be able to get a female HCP?

It not black and white, because there are quite a few negatives to surrogacy.

My dgd didn't see her father for many months when she was really tiny but she still missed him and remembered him, and she wasn't even inside him.

I'm sure a baby suffers being taken away from its mother, while at the same time sometimes shit happens, and babies lose their mothers.

Another concern about surrogacy, is when the baby is born with a health problem or some other unattractive characteristic and the buyers refuse to take him or her?

I'm rambling now, but these are very serious discussions that should not be shut down.

Obvs I haven't read the whole thread but still wondering whether I should congratulate OP on either finding 4 surrogate mothers,4 sperm donations or her brass tack on discovering she was a lesbian after giving birth to 4 children. You don't have to become a lesbian to not have children.

You seem to live in a gender/sex bubble which defines your whole life OP - honestly most people don't really care about other people's sex lives and genitalia (in its many forms) - most care about how you are as a person.

The rest is irrelevant.

Why do these threads always bring out tens of people saying something along the lines of: "I disagree with being gender critical, but I'm not going to say why."

If GC feminists are wrong, then tell us why! Debate with us! Prove us wrong.

It's almost as if you have no argument...

You're an academic but your research on this topic is incredibly limited.

Might I suggest reading the Feminism board on here to get a feel for the tenor of the debate? It's very informative.

If GC feminists are wrong, then tell us why! Debate with us! Prove us wrong.

Hilarious! try reading the other threads. Simples!