To be saddened by the transphobia and homophobia on Mumsnet?

[spannablue]

I used to come on here for a good laugh. But now there's just so much casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish om here!

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space? Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed.

We're talking about a tiny minority of people who are trans. But what I'm seeing on Mumsnet amounts to collective bullying.

When did it become ok to be so judgmental? Have you ever actually met a trans person and listened to them with an open mind?

There are people of all kinds on social media - trans, not trans, gay, straight, bi, lollipop ladies, lawyers, teachers, academics and bus drivers. Some talk a load of crap. And others engage in intelligent, informed, openminded debate. Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with these people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

I've been following Pride, Spanna. Great to see my sisters protesting lesbian erasure.

#getthelout

I have ignored the football in favour of the Tour de France - my favourite three weeks of the year!

I thought OP just said that suicide rate was 48%higher not that 48% of trans killed themselves

In OP she says 48% (of kids coming out as trans) will attempt suicide and half of those will succeed.

Yes OP basically said nearly a quarter of kids who come out as trans end up dead through suicide.

Totally ridiculous, made up stat.

I asked the OP if they understood what they were saying but they ignored the question.

Those that cling hardest to trans dogma are often those with poor critical reasoning IMO.

Shameful that an academic would promote such obviously dodgy stats though.

An advert popped up on my Facebook feed for a book about trans issues. Looking at the comments below was incredibly frightening. Lots of kids aged about 10 to 15 were talking about puberty blockers as if taking them meant you were in a really cool club.

When someone pointed out that puberty blockers can be dangerous they all instantly rounded on her and said puberty blockers are completely harmless, she was transphobic and that she wanted them to kill themselves.

I would really urge anyone who might be reading this and who wonders what all the fuss is about to go on a few trans forums and see how badly we are letting kids down. As we all know, a high percentage of kids currently identifying as trans are autistic and have very black and white thinking. It's clear that many of them actually believe that their only two options are puberty blockers or suicide.

I don't understand how anyone could, in good faith, claim that many transgender kids will kill themselves without intervention when the Tavistock Clinic has clearly stated that suicide is, in fact, incredibly rare.

heathspeedwell that's really depressing [sad[

Do you remember the name of the book?

Yes, the name of the book would be helpful if you can remember it, Heath.

@prawnofthepatriarchy I thought I saw you there!

Anyway. This is a useful article www.opendemocracy.net/5050/rahila-gupta/woman-has-become-dirty-word

@heathspeedwell when a kid presents with autism and gender variance it takes a lot longer for professionals (with the family) to decide what to do in terms of a treatment plan. It's a complicated situation because of the black and white thinking and tendency to fixate on an idea.

However the research show that treatment for those autistic kids who are in fact gender variant can be really helpful in ameliorating symptoms of anxiety/isolation/depression etc

spanna many posters on this thread have picked up on the completely false 'statistic' that you put in your opening post, where you ridiculously claimed that a quarter of people who come out as trans will end up committing suicide.

This is obviously complete crap and yet you included it in your opening post and have not responded to any of the many people who have pointed out how false and dangerous it is

Are you going to retract it or just continue to ignore every single substantive point raised in this thread?

Refuge say nearly 30 women attempt suicide every day as a result of domestic violence. 8 people a week succeed, most of them women.

Abuse survivors need single sex spaces and services to recover.

Re suicide rates:

It's saddening how many people on this thread have been angry with me for making them feel bad about how hostility towards trans people can exacerbate this.

Other research with different variables varies from about 20% up in terms of rates but none of the numbers represent an acceptable risk. The Stonewall research was specific to the uk and a small sample of young people in the last year or so. So of course it is bounded by its sample characteristics.

It's worth noting that the environment is more hostile towards trans people here in the uk than in some other places.

The original stat comes from this Stonewall research: www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jun/27/half-of-trans-pupils-in-the-uk-tried-to-take-their-own-lives-survey-finds

Here's a lit review which looks at international stats: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/

Research on 96 Cincinatti patients: www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/08/160831110833.htm

And from my current in-progress lit review (references available on request):
The emotional pain caused by rejection and isolation related to transition can cause clinicians to misdiagnose serious psychological disorders such as bipolar disorder, which can disappear once the child is in a welcoming and accepting context (Kuvalanka et al 2014; Birnkrant and Przeworski 2017; Capous Desyllas and Barron 2017).
The mental health difficulties including suicidal ideation experienced by some transgender children and young people is thought to derive from ‘minority stress’- the idea that ‘…individuals who hold a minority status, such as TGN [transgender and gender-nonconforming] youth, may experience adverse health outcomes due to the stigma associated with being a minority’ (Hendricks and Testa; Meyer cited in Katz-Wise et al 2018: 583; see also Birnkrant and Przeworski 2017; Kuvalanka et al 2017 and 2014; Capous Desyllas and Barron 2017). Clark et al (2014) discuss research suggesting that one in five transgender teenagers in their large New Zealand sample attempted suicide in the previous year. Where there is an additional diagnosis or symptoms of autism, social isolation can also derive from the social skills deficit often experienced by autistic young people (Kuvalanka et al 2017).
‘…being part of a supportive family may not fully protect TGN youth from adverse mental health concerns if they are still experiencing body dysphoria … and stigma from environments external to the family (e.g., being bullied at school)’ (Katz-Wise et al 2018: 588).

@upstartcrow addressing trans teen suicide rates does not mean ignoring the needs of domestic violence survivors.
Re the GRA, safeguards are and still will be in place. Have a look at the GRA consultation- it's all explained there.

TL; DR

Are you standing by your ridiculous claim then?

You state that a quarter of those who come out as trans end up actually committing suicide.

Do you still claim this is true, yes or no?

Have you not seen what they have to go through
What about what women and girls have to go through? Here are just two news stories I've read this weekend that highlight the abuse that women and girls experience every day:
www.cbsnews.com/news/hands-off-pants-on-law-aims-to-make-hotel-work-safer/
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-44751327
The trans experience doesn't trump the experience of women and girls.

It's saddening how many people on this thread have been angry with me for making them feel bad about how hostility towards trans people can exacerbate this.

That's not why people are angry, and you know it.

It's saddening how many people on this thread have been angry with me for making them feel bad about how hostility towards trans people can exacerbate this.

What?!!

You say nearly a quarter of trans teens end up dead through suicide

People have quite rightly pulled you up on this nonsense and you haven't answered - do you stand by this?

It's saddening how many people on this thread have been angry with me for making them feel bad about how hostility towards trans people can exacerbate this.

You are joking, Spanna. Your OP invented suicide stats. You're lying. Lying that there's a choice between transition and suicide is downright wicked.

And you seem to see medical transition as some sort of benign option for troubled teenagers, when we're talking about drugs and outcomes that would be inconceivable in any but life or death cases.

80% of such teens will desist. Medical transition is wholly unethical.

Some people (not all) are angry about the suicide stat, suggested I'm guilt tripping. But the guilt is there, so they feel angry.

I stand by the stat within its study limitations, but as I've said already, the stats vary according to place/time/sample/demographics. 0% is the only acceptable level of suicide attempts in any group.

Working to save the elephant doesn't mean not working to save the tiger.

Working to build a new LGBT centre doesn't mean not working to build shelters for homeless people.

In fact the elephant helpers often help the tigers. And the LGBT centre builders oftem help the homeless people. Some homeless people are LGBT!!!!

Raising this issue doesn't mean not raising others. In the real world, I do lots of (both academic and practical) work to address class prejudice, disability rights and domestic violence, as well as work on this area.

I stand by the stat within its study limitations, but as I've said already, the stats vary according to place/time/sample/demographics. 0% is the only acceptable level of suicide attempts in any group.

So what you are saying is, 'it's fine be totally cavalier with suicide statistics about trans kids, because we don't want any trans kids to commit suicide'?

If we are just throwing stuff about without backing it up properly, I thought there has been one case of a trans teenager killing themselves in the last 10 years, and that their father said it wasn't actually to do with them being trans?

Do you also like to use statistics of trans sex workers being murdered in South America to back up the claim that transgender people are much much more likely to be murdered than anyone else?

Some people (not all) are angry about the suicide stat, suggested I'm guilt tripping. But the guilt is there, so they feel angry.

If you were half as informed as you claim to be, you'd know better than to use false suicide statistics.

Stop ascribing motives to other peoples behaviour and learn to listen.

Ok so I've explained the stats thing now. Have a read of all the posts and links. I won't return to it unless someone raises something I hadn't already addressed.

If you're really still not convinced, you could always do your own research. I'm confident you'd find the same things I did.

So I keep getting accused of not answering questions. I prefer to respond when a. I've given the question some proper thinking time and b. DS isn't hitting me in the arm with a dummy.

Here's a question I asked early on in the thread to which I never got an answer:

Have any of you actually met and listened with an open mind to an actual trans person?

Here's another question I'd like an answer to:
Have any of you got a trans sibling, parent or child? Or are you close friends or family with anyone that does?

In answer to your question above OP, yes I have although I'm not sure why you've asked. A friend of mine. Their mental health mattered to me the same as any other friend's mental health, trans or not. I know, but have not 'listened' to in this specific context, others who are trans, young and older. I'm still struggling with the stats though.

Yes spanna I have two family members and several colleagues who are trans (I work in the Arts).

Not sure why that has any bearing on you deliberately spreading lies about suicide statistics though.