To be saddened by the transphobia and homophobia on Mumsnet?

[spannablue]

I used to come on here for a good laugh. But now there's just so much casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish om here!

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space? Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed.

We're talking about a tiny minority of people who are trans. But what I'm seeing on Mumsnet amounts to collective bullying.

When did it become ok to be so judgmental? Have you ever actually met a trans person and listened to them with an open mind?

There are people of all kinds on social media - trans, not trans, gay, straight, bi, lollipop ladies, lawyers, teachers, academics and bus drivers. Some talk a load of crap. And others engage in intelligent, informed, openminded debate. Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with these people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

On issues like weirdo men wanting to change with 13 year old girls on Oxford St clothes shops on Saturdays (and yes sadly there will be a good few)

Are you referring to Travis Alabanza? Because he identifies as a 15-year-old girl on nights out, and his best friend Alok claims that little girls are kinky and deviant and a lot more knowing than adults think.

Travis does not identify as a woman, but as trans femme. Nonetheless he insisted that Topshop let him try his clothes on in the female changing room, despite the sales assistant saying but there are teenage girls changing in there.

It is necessary to pick apart what transgenderism means, who is claiming it and why.

There are many thousands of people in this country who cannot go to town to shop, to the cinema, to a restaurant, do any of the million things the rest of us take for granted because they have or care for someone with severe disabilities and there is a chronic lack of suitable lavatories in this country.
Get that? They’re not panicking about using the loo because they can’t use the one that feels appropriate, or because of concerns about violence from men ( which women are not allowed to be worried about in this context of course). They can’t leave the fucking house or begin to participate in what the rest of us regard as normal life.
I think solving that problem is more important and I won’t apologise for that.

Is there hostility in pointing out how the current and proposed systems are open to abuse?

I think that people who have been on the receiving end of abuse, belittlement and indifference might be inclined to resort to sarcasm, cynicism and mockery. It’s unfortunate but passive aggression is often the reaction of oppressed people who struggle to assert their rights without using snark.

Satire is about punching up. You are seeing women punching up but if you believe that transgender people are the target and you think they are most oppressed then you will interpreted that satirical impulse as evidence of hostility to transgender people rather than misogyny

Right now the central issue is self id. The exemptions will (in my opinion) be rendered unworkable if self-identify comes in.

Indeed so. My fears for all women are contained within that statement.

Allowing any man to claim he is a woman is to allow any predatory man easy passage into women's (currently) safe spaces.

Why it's "transphobic" to state that is beyond me.

Guys this is a bit like playing tennis with 14 people and I'm currently parenting a 3yo so do forgive my absences. I'll return amd respond when poss

I think this thread clearly demonstrates how some well-meaning people with a little knowledge can actively be doing harm to the very people that they want to support.

Stating that half of all trans identifying children kill themselves isn't just nonsense, it's leading to people making decisions that can harm their whole futures.

The Tavistock Clinic has said that suicides of trans kids are actually very rare - I think Dr Polly Carmichael stated that there has only been one in the last 10 years?

However, if you talk to teenage kids, many of them believe that the only two options they have if they feel confused about their gender are either suicide or puberty blockers. They genuinely believe that puberty blockers are harmless and reversible, and if they don't take them they will feel suicidal. This is patently not true.

The experts at the Tavistock Clinic have expressed a number of concerns about the side effects of GnRH analogues. I have taken these drugs myself and can attest that even in the short term, the side effects are most unpleasant. However in the long term side effects include sterility and the inability to achieve orgasm.

Please, please can I urge people not to bandy about these false suicide stats. They are putting terrible pressure on vulnerable children, and I think we can all agree that none of us want that.

Sorry, my bad, the OP said that around 48% of all trans kids attempt suicide and half of them will achieve it.

It is blatantly not true that 25% of trans kids kill themselves.

Heath, I've been saying for years now that child transition is likely to be the worst medical scandal we've ever seen.

Datun, not heard of that person but yes that is along the lines of what I meant.

I do like to hear lots of different views on topics and don't like just hearing back my own views so I appreciate the efforts of those with different views to express them.

I certainly agree that we have a major shortage of public loos in the UK. In fact I joked to the children I would leave all my money to endow one in perpetuity in our locality as there is not a single one - they removed it.

heathspeedwell

About 2000 children a year are referred to identity clinics. A quarter of that is 500, that's over one a day.

Or the other statistic, those on puberty blockers, which I think is about 800 children. That would be 200 children who had killed themselves. But according to the Tavistock there has been one.

The Samaritans have said you shouldn't talk about suicide amongst the cohort at risk. It's a mistake to imagine there is ever only one cause, for a start.

And talking about it adds to suicide ideation. A self fulfilling prophecy, sort of thing.

They say it is irresponsible and should not be done.
That does not stop trans lobby groups and numerous online sites leveraging suicide.

You have to ask yourself why?

If playing suicide down leads to fewer suicides, why do they do the opposite?

Please, please can I urge people not to bandy about these false suicide stats. They are putting terrible pressure on vulnerable children, and I think we can all agree that none of us want that.

This.

Datun I've got a PhD in a closely related discipline and have read Foucault, butler, loads of queer theory and gender studies.

It's theoretically interesting- some of it- but not all of us are so dense as to think it translates to it being fine for blokes to get their dicks out whenever they want.

In case that was ambiguous, I mean that you're not missing anything that would change your view, if you have any common sense or life experience.

Xenia

I felt sure you were actually talking about him, because you were so on the money!

He took to Twitter and forced that Topshop to make their changing rooms gender neutral by telling them to 'sort their shit out'.

The power is amazing. One man on Twitter achieved more in one tweet then women could in decades of campaigning.

It's theoretically interesting- some of it- but not all of us are so dense as to think it translates to it being fine for blokes to get their dicks out whenever they want.

I'm very reassured!

Don't we want a practical solution that protects women's spaces that is not anti-trans?
It isn't 'anti-trans' to defend women's rights. Women experience disadvantage and discrimination because of our biology. Hard won women's rights exist to address that disadvantage. No other demographic needs those rights because no other demographic has our biology and suffers discrimination because of it. Taking away women's rights doesn't benefit any other demographic, it just disadvantages women. It's interesting that not being 'anti-trans' seems to require men to concede nothing and women to surrender all rights that address our oppression.

Massive pressure is being placed on women to make their spaces welcoming to trans women. Where is the parallel campaign to persuade men to make their spaces accommodating to trans men.
We are told that threat of male violence makes men’s loos and changing rooms unsafe for trans women. Where is the campaign to reduce that, so trans men can use the facilities which align with their gender safely?

It's always one side. The men (trans women) don't want women to get a word in edgeways and they want our hard won gains and they want to shut us up - if anytihng proves they are really still men that obviously does. However since I read in the 1970s books by people born into the wrong body I have alway had huge sympathy for them; I just don't want men shouting women down as ever and there are heaps of even straight men out there who do stuff to women every day of the week, never mind those with mental illnesses. We need to be ever on our guard.

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space?

I don’t. I do think that MRA’s in dresses are. If the gender ID act goes through they will be able to neutralise women and women’s experiences.

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space?

No. Ppl don't think they know that some trans women are openly trying it in to take over women's space.

There is no secretly about it any more

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space?

No. Ppl don't think they know that some trans women are openly trying it in to take over women's space.

There is no secretly about it any more

You forgot to mention all the predatory men/sex offenders who won't even bother trying to look like women if self-id comes in - they're the ones that worry me most.

Enjoying the football? Or have you all taken the kids to Pride?

My son and his boyfriend havent even mentioned pride...i wouldnt know anything about it except for mumsnet

They seem more interested in the football, well the boyfriend does, think ds1 would rather not bother

I prefer the rugby and not everyone is based in London, or indeed the Uk.

I did think you'd be at pride though.......

Neither. Enjoying the paddling pool.