To be saddened by the transphobia and homophobia on Mumsnet?

[spannablue]

I used to come on here for a good laugh. But now there's just so much casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish om here!

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space? Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed.

We're talking about a tiny minority of people who are trans. But what I'm seeing on Mumsnet amounts to collective bullying.

When did it become ok to be so judgmental? Have you ever actually met a trans person and listened to them with an open mind?

There are people of all kinds on social media - trans, not trans, gay, straight, bi, lollipop ladies, lawyers, teachers, academics and bus drivers. Some talk a load of crap. And others engage in intelligent, informed, openminded debate. Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with these people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

Well, yes it is. Because the alternative is to force them into situations they're not comfortable with.

We have several disabled toilets. We are inclusive of everybody. Disabled people can still use that toilet and all the others.

spannablue

I'm not sure if it's you you are quoting, or GIRES?

But the conclusion seems to be that if you are autistic and trans-, treating the trans part, will help??

Specifically will help '...make the bits more closely related to the neurology of autism easier to handle'

What does that mean? What does 'bits' mean. Bits.

The people who run GIRES are a husband and wife team. From memory, he is an MBA she is a chiropractor, or a chiropodist (can't remember).

Their relevant experience is that their child was trans. Although I think they are NC these days.

GIRES seem to be very heavily invested in promoting treatment to children. They are fairly candid about it.

They go into schools and recommend cakes, parties and celebration for children who are trans-, using promotional material containing cutesy pictures of penguins.

"before children’s views become influenced by the prejudices of the adults around them”.

If someone reads the Transgendertrend promotional material, and then reads that of GIRES it's an eye-opener in itself.

And as people have mentioned above - it would be inappropriate for students who are girls to have to share with a trans male to female. So yes it's progress. Because that would be the alternative.

So what about the discomfort of disabled people being pushed to the back of the queue for their own resources?

Being on Mumsnet has hugely educated me about the challenges disabled people face. I’ve been sobered and shocked by reading of how people suffer when able-bodied people selfishly use the accessible facilities which allow disabled people to take part in public life and to preserve their dignity. To take away their spaces or to give others access to them is most certainly not being ‘inclusive of everybody’.

I keep plopping this on threads but it's not just gaslighting on a huge scale, but it will be LEGALISED gaslighting.

Isn't that strange, given how new the laws against EA are?

There is no queue. We have several disabled toilets. We wouldn't allow that. Everybody is catered for.

As I said, the alternative is a situation everyone is uncomfortable with.

Why would it be inappropriate karenna?

I mean for girls to have to share with trans male to female (as you put it) children.

If you read above, there are a lot of posters who object to this. I personally don't. But that's my opinion. Many of the posters objected quite strongly to a trans male to female sharing with other females.

I suggest you ask them.

Transphobia and homophobia hasn't been a problem on Mumsnet issue is that a small minority of trans women are overriding women's rights and sense of identity. Terms like 'non-men' 'people with a cervix' 'cisgender' etc etc are the issue.

This article is pretty self explanatory and not at all transphobic

www.theargus.co.uk/news/16334391.trans-women-are-still-males-with-male-genitalia/?ref=twtrec

it would be inappropriate for students who are girls to have to share with a trans male to female.

Yes it would. But did you know this is against guidance endorsed by the Scottish government? They recommend that trans male to female pupils be allowed to share with the girls. Including overnight accommodation. Scotgov also recommends that parents are t told about this.

*arent told

Well it’s great if your school is so well resourced that you can provide an adequate number of facilities to accommodate disabled people, single sex changing and transgender changing all with sufficient privacy and space. But your phrasing was ‘the disabled toilet has been renamed changing room to accommodate trans students’ and that sentence is profoundly worrying. I’m glad that it is not the case and that you do have more disabled toilets whic have not been appropriated. I do worry that for some people, the only solution they can come up with to the problem is to take away spaces from either women and girls or disabled people. It’s strange how those are the default options...

It's a very difficult subject area. We're going round in circles a bit - upthread I suggested it was my opinion that it should be fine. I still think that. Now people are asking me why it might be seen as inappropriate. Can't really win here.

I didn't know that about Scottish law - I'll have a read.

A disproportionate number of the student members of the LGBT group at the school I work at, are diagnosed with autism. Something I'd like to read up on.

karenna

I thought you taught about LGBT issues? The overrepresentation of autism amongst the trans-community is very well documented.

There are several threads here on mumsnet FWR, by people who are autistic, talking about it.

I believe the consensus was that it's because some autistic people do not process gendered signals. They are meaningless. And so the feeling of not belonging can be explained by them being told they are 'in the wrong body'.

Although I would still like to know what GIRES means by the 'bits' that are related to the neurology of autism.

Secondary schools in the UK have banned skirts as a uniform to be more gender inclusive. This is taking the choice away from women, girls being able to choose what they want to wear. And all to appease a minority group, by overriding wishes of a majority group - women. These controls are reminiscent of how women were controlled in what they wore in Victorian times, our rights are being eroded. That's the issue.

Karenna you seem to be saying that trans male to female children (your language) must use facilities intended for people with disabilities because the alternative is unacceptable.

Don't you think that this highlights 2 important issues:

1. Nobody really believes trans male to female children to be female.
2. Because current law and cultural norms insist that these children are female (despite nobody actually believing that) they either need to hijack female sex segregated spaces or hijack protected disabled spaces.

It's all a bit of a mess really due to the perpetuation of the lie that humans can change reproductive sex and or that their reproductive sex is unlinked to their biology.

Oh hello datun!

I've delivered some training. I'm not an expert - there is so much new information. Im reading up on new information every day. I'm doing my best! Give me a break!

If you are an expert however - feel free to fill me in.

1. Nobody really believes trans male to female children to be female.

Umm - yes they do. I do for one. And plenty of others do too

You don't - I get that - and others in this thread. But plenty do.

The disabled toilet has been re- named "changing room" for the increasing amount of trans children we have.

I note that you subsequently say you have sufficient provision for people who are disabled.

There have been numerous threads on here where disabled people have, become incensed, indignant, and very, very worried that the space that they have fought for decades to get is about to be sacrificed.

I personally have reassured them that that will be over my dead body.

This is really difficult to believe, to be honest. A bunch of children, who cannot change sex, ever, are being given priority over physically and mentally disabled children.

It's quite true that it's the vulnerable that are sacrificed first.

I suggested it was my opinion that it should be fine.

I’m sure you aren’t suggesting that we should base policy on your opinion that’s something ‘should’ be fine.

Policy should be based on evidence and should adhere to the UNCRC.

There is no evidence to suggest that girls in this country do not require the same privacy provided by single sex facilities that UNESCO says is vital to prevent girls from being unable to access education.

There has been no consultation with girls to ascertain whether they are comfortable sharing facilities with male pupils.

There is evidence that at least some are not.

Removing single sex facilities contravenes several articles from the UNCRC.

But if they are female (which I use to mean of the female reproductive sex cos that is what female means) why are they using the disabled facilities and not the female ones?

I tell you wha Darun. Why don't we just chuck out all the trans children? Since they can't change in communal changing rooms. They can't use one of the disabled toilets. We don't have the money to build a new changing room

Let's put them to the bottom of the pile. Because they don't really matter.

In fact they don't really exist do they? It's all just attention seeking.

Karenna - how are they female? Do you not actually know what that word means?

I do yes. And it means more than just biology. I'm done again. I hid this thread last night because the diatribe of transphobia - and the vitriol and name calling was just awful - from supposedly educated women

Someone comes along occasionally with a differing opinion and they are basically piled upon.

How dare someone think differently.

I really hope your child doesn't ever identify as trans. Because clearly you don't think they deserve a place in society.

Shame on you.