To be saddened by the transphobia and homophobia on Mumsnet?

[spannablue]

I used to come on here for a good laugh. But now there's just so much casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish om here!

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space? Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed.

We're talking about a tiny minority of people who are trans. But what I'm seeing on Mumsnet amounts to collective bullying.

When did it become ok to be so judgmental? Have you ever actually met a trans person and listened to them with an open mind?

There are people of all kinds on social media - trans, not trans, gay, straight, bi, lollipop ladies, lawyers, teachers, academics and bus drivers. Some talk a load of crap. And others engage in intelligent, informed, openminded debate. Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with these people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

Oh and I'm another poster who completely believes that the OP is an academic. It kinda oozes from her posts.

BTW OP did you mean to use the language below upthread??

trans and non trans women

As an academic I'm sure you pay attention to language so I'm assuming this misogynistic phrasing was deliberate.

We have trauma informed single sex slaves,.so why dont you fight for a third unisex space instead of intruding on an area you clearly know nothing about?

Stop being so patronising to women who are assault survivors - some of them live with their abuser as they haven't managed to leave yet, and they cannot use the mixed sex spaces. you desire so badly.

Trying to frame the discussion as being about 'niceness' doesn't hide the fact that it isn't nice to remove women's right to autonomy and freedom of association.

And that you are till ignoring the reality of life for Muslim women. You really don't want to talk about the hijab and what they need to be able to wear it, do you?

Interesting auto correct; spaces, not slaves.

I am swayed by the majority and now believe that the op may be a real academic, in which case she is dishonest in a far more pernicious way.

She knows exactly what she's doing spreading lies such as GIRES is a reliable source but Transgender Trend is not

God help her students if she has any. Intellectual dishonesty is a terrible characteristic.

'we need to address the institutionalised problem of sexual assault (mostly by men)'

And how the heck are we going to be able to do that when the data gathering tools to look at sexual assault are being systematically undermined by the unsystematic switch to recording gender identification instead of sex?

You seem to think you are the only person who has ever thought about any of this stuff. Of course we need to address this and feminists including many on this thread have been actively trying to do so for years.

And this is rather interesting phrasing too:

Just as we teach our kids, let's listen and be kind.

Because we teach "kids" the same things right? We socialize kids in the same way? Equally, without sexism? No different messages for girls and boys?

What I hear in the language you use above is an appeal to women's socialization to make way for boys and men. To be kind to them and to listen to them as they erode women's class identity and the (already compromised) political power that class identity affords us.

It's more misogyny. Which no doubt you won't like my pointing out (not kind Beachcomber!) but, as you have set yourself up here as an authority due to your being an academic, it will surely not surprise you that people are going to pay attention to your language.

It doesn't really matter whether the OP is an academic or not, although she may well be the researcher she says. However it is just very nice we have the freedom to discuss views with all kinds of different people freely on here.

I never see anything too nasty on MN and those of us who want the current UK gender change laws to stay as they are, as a reasonable balance, are not transphobic. We just have a different view on those laws for all kinds of carefully considered reasons.

Most academics wouldn ot want antying that skews statistics. Many of us have worked for 30 years to get women into more positions of power in the UK (and women still only have 20% of those positions so we have a very long way to go). We need to ensure trans women are not included in those statistics for a start, nor take carefully fought for positions that are going to women for the first time.

'Be kind'. No. I'm sick of being told to be kind. Actually, that's the tell that proves beyond any shadow of a doubt people who say transwomen are women know they're talking utter shite. Unerringly, only one specific group is always warned to be kind. Any guesses as to what it is? You'd almost think you could tell the difference ...

(also, if OP is an academic, why does she keep posting absolute rubbish - blatant disinformation, propaganda and lies? Aren't there meant to be some standards at least?)

Hi OP,

Really needing a pro-self ID POV on another thread and maybe you would be interested?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3298766-Why-segregate-by-gender?pg=1&order=

Thanks

spannablue

You called the content here
'casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish'.

Then showed your hand by promoting GIRES, and baselessly criticising Transgender Trend.

And made a clearly ignorant and/or goady argument of

'Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space?'

Gaslit with:

'Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?'

And outright lied with:

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed?'.

And after women systematically deconstruct your arguments, you end up saying just be kind?

I can promise you, you have followed the exact same pattern as everyone else. Because there is no credible argument.

After strawmen accusations, manipulated suicide stats and tedious demands for proof that men are dangerous, it always ends with some kind of exhortation that why can't women just budge up, shut up and be nice.

No.

Datun well said!!

I am not a non trans woman... I am a woman. Stop trying to redefine what a woman is and means.

Tbh a few years ago I honestly couldn't see the issue. Just let transwomen pee in peace what's the big deal?

And it wasn't the "bigoted" whateverphobic feminists that change my mind. It was the trans right activists and their increased demands of taking over everything women have and have fought for.
It was the man that transitioned and won woman of the year.
It was the middle aged father that identifies as a 6yo girl.
It was the rapists that suddenly identify as women and want places in women's prison.
It was the men for whom their "identity " and feelings mattered more than a woman's wishes of being treated by a female HCP.
It was the people that attacked and threatened violence to women for "literal violence".
It was the trans woman bragging about beating someone up for "dead naming " her.
It was the aggressive propaganda,brainwashing and frankly abusive campaign to trans children...even very young children.
It was transwomen attempting to take over sports.
It was transwomen suing businesses that weren't suited to cater to their (male) needs because they cater to women.
It was transwomen telling women to "suck my lady dick".
It was the transwoman whose want to work in a refuge was more important than the NEEDS of traumatised women.
It was the transwoman breastfeeding (unsuccessfully i might add) a baby,without actually giving the mother of the baby a chance to do that. Without a thought of what consequences the hormones might have on the baby. She felt "validated " though you see? Once again at the expense of a woman and a child..a baby.
It is the access to single sex spaces,to prisons,to refuges , in sports etc .
It is the lack of any attempt of fundraising and setting up of their own services...why bother when you can take over someone else's?
It is the aggressive attempt of erasing what a woman is and means, non trans women,cis women,womb havers,chest feeders etc.
It is the statistics and media reports of crime "woman rapes,attack,beats up ,murders".

"I want it so you have to give it to me,or I will make you with gaslighting,threats and violence " that's what it comes down to... and it doesn't get more "Male entitlement " than that.

@Datun Re the GIRES autism 'cured by transition' thing: I read a paper on this last week and will post the reference from work on Monday if I remember. What the research says is a bit more nuanced:

Autistic people are around seven times more likely to be gender variant. This is likely to be because it's easier for autistic people to be resilient to social norms (like heteronormativity) and also because they're more likely to adhere to the logic of their experience (I don't experience myself as a girl, so I must be something else. Logic.)

Both autistic people and trans teens experience bullying and isolation. Supporting those who are trans can remove a swathe of the source of anxiety, and can make the bits more closely related to the neurology of autism easier to handle.

Indeed Datun. Excellent summary.

And the OP's contributions on this thread, especially the opening post, are clearly casual, uninformed rubbish .

Which is a bit ironic.

(I took out the vitriolic cos it is hyperbolic.)

Op you say

I'm also interested in trying to understand what's at the root of the fear and angst and anger in these threads

I believe that transwomen are men. And so when I am told that I have to share spaces with transwomen you are telling me that I have to share spaces with men.

I refuse.

Lots of women feel like this.

It doesn’t matter what is at the root of it.

You can’t talk us round.

You can’t make us believe that a man is really a woman.

We refuse to share with people we view as men.

And we’re not going to be kind about it if you try and make us.

But feel free to come on that thread I linked and make a case for why it’s so important that we segregate by gender and not sex.

Great post Rebel.

Autistic people are around seven times more likely to be gender variant. This is likely to be because it's easier for autistic people to be resilient to social norms (like heteronormativity) and also because they're more likely to adhere to the logic of their experience (I don't experience myself as a girl, so I must be something else. Logic.)

Better give them dangerous drugs then and encourage them to cut up their bodies!

Let's tell them they can change reproductive sex.

Do you really think this is OK?!

@spannablue

Interesting point about the autism. A disproportionate number of the student members of the LGBT group at the school I work at, are diagnosed with autism. Something I'd like to read up on.

We've also, as an increasing number of schools are doing, made individual toilet cubicles (that stand independently) gender neutral. The communal toilet areas are still gender specific, as are the changing rooms. The disabled toilet has been re- named "changing room" for the increasing amount of trans children we have. A long way from communal changing - if it ever happens - and one for huge debate. I can see a lot of the rationale both for and against. We've come a long way in a short space of time.

spanna you're talking shite again. That is not an example of logic. I don't know what arena of academia that would seem logical in.

I'd like to see evidence of '7 times more likely' as well. I'm familiar with ASD being common in trans identifying people but it doesn't follow that it happens because of their resistance to societal norms. More likely it's because they already feel different and are being offered a label that reassures them. They may feel at odds socially and think maybe it's because "I'm not a real boy/girl like them" There are many factors at play in people's minds, you are jumping to conclusions.

@spannablue I hear you!

And from the GIRES link you posted upthread OP I quote:

Now, several countries have written more appropriate legislation which recognises the human rights and personal autonomy of individuals whose gender identities are not stereotypically associated with their sex,

They fucking admit right there that this is about sexist stereotypes for crying out loud.

And their conclusion is to tell children (with or without autism) that the stereotypes are right and that the children's bodies and understanding of sexist stereotypes as sexist is wrong?!

The transing of children is a medical scandal.

(I don't experience myself as a girl, so I must be something else. Logic.

Not if instead of gaslighting them and enforcing gender stereotypes at them we focus on biology.
Being a girl or a boy is not an "experience" ffs it's biology. I don't see why autistic children/people are less likely to understand that.
But if you present it as an experience and feelings ofc it will be confusing and traumatic.

The disabled toilet has been re- named "changing room" for the increasing amount of trans children we have.

Excellent progress there

karenna you give the example of turning the disabled toilet into a neutral changin room as evidence of coming ‘a long way’. It sounds somewhat opposite for disabled people, to have fought so long and hard for inclusion to now lose their spaces. I don’t think annexing disabled space is any better than taking it away from women or girls and I’m sad to see that decision framed as progress.