To wonder what the point of cisgender is?

[Squatternutbosh]

I’ve just read an article where cisgender is described as “someone who identifies as the sex they were assigned at birth”. Is this an actual thing? Why is this even given a label? Surely if you were born male or female and you live as a male or female then this is what you “identify” as. (If you even feel the need to identify as anything, rather than just living your life as you).

It seems like everything must be given a label these days. The worlds gone fucking mad.

I'll try to help out on definitions here if I can, using an analogy with sexuality.

Gender expression - are simply cultural norms, often oppresive which are associated with a specific gender. So, wearing pink, climbing trees, shaving your legs. The form of gender expression differs from culture to culture and sometimes arises from sex differences.

Gender identity. The first thing to get out of the way is the use of the word "identify" which sounds like its an act of choice. It's an identity like an identity card - it describes who you are. In the same way that a person "feels" gay, even if they don't act on it, gender identity is an inherent state. So, your identity might be a man, a woman, or other gender. It's not a choice. You might not be able to understand why a person is attracted to someone of the same sex, when you aren't, but it's a real thing. There are examples of people whose gender identity changes, in much the same way that sexuality can vary, but that doesn't mean it's not real. For many of us whose body matches the gender associated in vast majority of cases to their sex, we don't even feel we have a gender. And even if it does match, it does not lessen in any way the very real sex-based oppresion rooted in biology. For example, transmen and ciswomen share the possibility of being raped and impregnated, whereas transwomen don't. It's entirely possible for someone to lie about their sexuality, even for nefarious ends, but that doesn't mean sexuality isn't real.

The relationship between gender expression and gender identity is complex. First, wanting to wear pink is not a sign you are a girl, and I think it's vital to allow children to express themselves without ascribing their behaviour to a particular gender. However, it's not surprising that trasngirls want to be like other girls, even if the gender expression for those girls is rooted in oppression.

So there is sex-based oppression and gender based oppression, then there is oppression suffered by trans people which is not suffered by the rest of us.

roses a lot of what women are uncomfortable about now is the concept of self id - ie that anyone can 'self declare' as a woman and gain access to women's spaces, refuges etc. And then culture that that creates, ie that no man, whether they are trans or not, can be challenged on entering a woman's space because just asking the question itself would be 'transphobic'.

I'm sure there have been women who haven't always been comfortable with sharing their facilities with 'old school' transsexual women, but as I said, women have been conditioned to be kind and accepting of that sort of thing. Plus there has still been an element of gatekeeping on protecting certain sex based things.

This push for self id has changed things again.

I don't believe that 'man in a frock' is a kind thing to throw at someone as an insult. However, facts are facts. And the fact is that transwomen are not women.

No one takes trans men into account whatsover because they are women. Except Matt Beggs allowed to dope on T and compete against other females.

Anything can be defined in the terms of what it is not, it's just dependent on how you phrase it. I don't think anyone here has actually phrased cis as a "non-trans" person on here anyway.

Well the only other way to define cis apart from 'not trans', is to say that 'your gender identity matches with your body'. I reject the concept of 'gender identity' so that is meaningless to me. Cis means 'not trans'.

Nobody knows how other people feel. 'Except trans people.' There is absolutely no logic to it.

I'm not saying that trans people feel "like women" feel. Women don't all feel the same way anyway, that statement is useless. I'm saying trans people have some kind of feeling or conviction that means that their gender identity is not correspondent with their sex.

That probably won't feel the same for all trans people. The exact gender can be quite confusing for some people, many people spend a long time before they are entirely sure, if that helps answer your question at all. But ultimately I'm no help to you whatsoever. I don't know how their gender identity works, because I'm not trans.

a lot of what women are uncomfortable about now is the concept of self id - ie that anyone can 'self declare' as a woman and gain access to women's spaces, refuges etc. And then culture that that creates, ie that no man, whether they are trans or not, can be challenged on entering a woman's space because just asking the question itself would be 'transphobic'.

You haven't mentioned self ID very much on this thread, until now. Was I correct, then, in saying that it is self ID that you have a problem with, and so now you have a problem with trans people in all areas?

I'm sure there have been women who haven't always been comfortable with sharing their facilities with 'old school' transsexual women, but as I said, women have been conditioned to be kind and accepting of that sort of thing. Plus there has still been an element of gatekeeping on protecting certain sex based things.

Your original post implied that the 'element of gatekeeping' came in as a reaction to trans people suddenly becoming "entitled" …

Surely you didn't think women being uncomfortable was okay, three years ago or so?

However, facts are facts. And the fact is that transwomen are not women.

Based on the definition of "adult human female", yes. But the very fact that they're called "transwomen", I think, suggests that we as a society are moving away from that definition of "women" altogether.

@moonkissedlegs You are fortunate enough to have a match between your mind and body, so you don't feel like you have a gender identity. I've defined gender identity above - I hope that helps.

There is no point . It’s all a lot of bollocks .

I have a problem with a man being able to self identify as a woman. Yes. Especially when that means that that man can access spaces, both in the physical and non physical sense (eg,. AWS, awards meant for women, sports) simply on his say so.

You are fortunate enough to have a match between your mind and body, so you don't feel like you have a gender identity. I've defined gender identity above - I hope that helps.

So are we talking about people who have gender dysphoria then? Because I thought that was transphobic?

@Moonkissedlegs I want to pick apart the issue here. If your issue that some cismen pretend to be transwomen in order to gain access to female spaces? Or is that you don't think transwomen are women and should never be allowed in female spaces?

Well the only other way to define cis apart from 'not trans', is to say that 'your gender identity matches with your body'. I reject the concept of 'gender identity' so that is meaningless to me. Cis means 'not trans'.

So, you don't believe in gender identity, so you've rejected the original definition, used a subverted definition, and now you're complaining about the nature of the definition you have chosen to use?

You've decided you're going to define cis as "non-trans" which doesn't work because trans isn't the only identity which wouldn't come under the term "cis, and now you're complaining that you're being defined by something you're not?

Surely you know that's ludicrous.

No one takes trans men into account whatsover because they are women.

I take trans men into account, as everyone should take trans men into account.

Unfortunately, the big thing that gender critical people are upset about is transwomen being allowed to enter female-only spaces plus a lot of them are massive transmisogynists so they tend to focus the discussion entirely on trans women while ignoring trans men, even when the discussion is about trans people broadly.

Which I find amusing, since their entire thing is being hugely protective of people with vaginas.

Many people believe in angels. And the devil.

Yes, as part of their hugely important religions which make massive differences to their lives

Unkind and disrespectful, IMO, to refer to someone's beliefs as "rubbish."

If you don’t match your mind with your body, but don’t believe in gender, then what are you?

WiggyWalsh, you say Welcome to Mumsnet, where if it's not transphobia or borderline racism, they're not interested!

Saying "welcome to Mumsnet" suggests you're a regular. However your use of mark up - which is not used on Mumsnet - and a search makes it plain that this is your first post, as in:

Ah, so it wasn’t a genuine question. It was goading to make a point.

Bit of a giveaway. Regular posters should be alerted to brigading and possible sock puppeting on this thread.

@Moonkissedlegs Some people think their bodies are just fine, but their identity is that typically associated with that of a different sex. However, gender dysphoria is an easy headspace to start.

I don’t wish to be called cis. I do find that term offends me. Why do we not get a choice in what we are labelled? Are we not allowed to take offense?

If your issue that some cismen pretend to be transwomen in order to gain access to female spaces? Or is that you don't think transwomen are women and should never be allowed in female spaces?

It's not about 'pretending' anything. If you change the law so that a man can self id as a woman, then you have erased woman as a concept and have rolled back any sex based protection that they had. 'Woman' means nothing if anyone can self identify as one.

TRANS WOMEN'S ACCESS TO WOMEN'S SPACES HAS BEEN ENSHRINED IN THE LAW SINCE 2010.

Just. Because it's worth repeating.

Also: when self ID - the entire point of which is to make it easier for trans people to legally register their gender (the current process takes years, is confusing and expensive, and requires sign off from two medical specialists) - comes into play, RAPE AND SEXUAL ASSAULT WILL CONTINUE TO BE ILLEGAL.

Also worth repeating: they've had self ID in Ireland for a couple of years.

How many cases of men dressing up as women so they can access women's spaces and assault women have there been?

@bosspeebeepee

Yes, we 99% are very fortunate, and we shouldn't railing on oppressed minorities. Generally, trans people have a shit time, and acknowledging their lived existence is a reasonable first step.

Your argument appears to be because trans people are in a small minority, we shouldn't be inclusive of them. I've heard the same argument in mental health and there is a reason we now have the terms neurotypical and neuroatypical.

Some people think their bodies are just fine, but their identity is that typically associated with that of a different sex.*

'typically associated'. So socially constructed stereotype then?

I really don't care how people 'identify' or what their 'identity' is. They can express themselves how they want, wear what they want, act how they want. I don't care. But that shouldn't shape laws around sex based protections for women.

Sock puppeting? Does that mean you think Wiggy and I are the same person just agreeing with ourselves? 😂

I’m a regular (for a couple of years so not that long) and name change very regularly for confidentiality. Doing a search on someone’s username gives you no info on them at all re whether they’re regulars, as it only shows posts made under their current username.

How many cases of men dressing up as women so they can access women's spaces and assault women have there been?

I don't think people look at what actually happens since trying to gatekeep trans people out of places people feel should be single-sex has backfired massively and nobody mentions that

Often in these discussions it becomes a mix of prejudice, paranoia and extended scenarios where people discuss what could happen. And then they hysterically build off and bounce off one another until it sounds much worse than it is.

This always confuses me.

I don’t “feel” like a woman. But i don’t feel like a man either. I don’t fit gender stereotypes, i don’t wear make up, skirts or dresses, heels. I have short functional nails. I am very good at DIY.

I have done various psychology gender studies, most of which have declared i have a “male brain” as i am logical and analytical, and cannot multitask. (I had a housemate who wrote her final year thesis on pink brain blue brain).

So am i a cis woman when i neither “identify” as a woman or behave like one is expected to. My behaviour and dress style would be more acceptable in a man. So does that me a transman?

If we are going to insist on labelling people, we need several thousand labels to define every nuanced perception of a persons own gender.