To wonder what the point of cisgender is?

[Squatternutbosh]

I’ve just read an article where cisgender is described as “someone who identifies as the sex they were assigned at birth”. Is this an actual thing? Why is this even given a label? Surely if you were born male or female and you live as a male or female then this is what you “identify” as. (If you even feel the need to identify as anything, rather than just living your life as you).

It seems like everything must be given a label these days. The worlds gone fucking mad.

What do you mean 'psychologically men'? Do you mean like 'ladybrain'? Because there is no evidence for female brains in men's bodies.

I mean that they have a psychological understanding that they are men, whether or not they are biologically male.

But they are different issues, with different roots and need different solutions. The gay or black rights movements never tried to appropriate the struggles of women's oppression, or make out they were more oppressed and than this group or that group. They are there to campaign for their rights and want to look at the root causes and solutions to their oppression. The trans movement appropriates whatever they can, to make it about themselves.

I'm sorry, but are you very well versed in history?

Of course different marginalised groups have done this to each other! Racism was rampant in the Suffragette movement. To this day, white feminists appropriate things made to highlight racism- did you see the woman who appropriated 'This is America' to make it about white women? Gay men are infamous for being misogynistic. Homophobia is and has been extremely pervasive in the black community. The list goes on and on...

Being a member of one marginalised community doesn't mean you don't have prejudices, or actively discriminate against, others. These are not the first two groups to have problems, but it appears to be coming to a head and, like I said, the issues overlap very frequently, making it difficult.

So me "feeling" like a unicorn is irrelevant.

Because you would be 'feeling' a physical thing. Gender is not a physical thing.

And what's in my head may be the most important part of me (I quite agree) but I have not been sidelined at work, or called dirty names or been physically attacked by men because of what's in my head.

You're missing the point. Sex-based discrimination is a thing - as is transphobia. Transphobia refers directly to gender, or more importantly, identifying as a gender that opposes your sex. So yes, you will experience misogyny based on your sex, and yes, trans people will experience transphobia based on your gender identity. Those two things are not incapable of coexisting as facts.

How can you have gender as a universal, objective, non stereotype, non socially constructed thing?

No, I don't mean sex.

People are beginning to reject gender stereotypes and conventions, the concept of 'gender' has not been completely erased. People are fully aware that you can identify as a woman or man and still not like shopping or sports respectively.

So, when people say they identify as a woman, they don't mean they like pink and shopping. They mean that they feel as if they are a woman. It doesn't stop them getting a crew cut or joining the army or being a CEO. But they identify as a woman.

Maybe in future you should just come out with your nasty disgusting views

Are you talking to me? Which of my views are 'nasty and disgusting'? That I don't believe that men are women? That I won't have my identity redefined so that men can be incorporated into the 'umbrella of woman'?

Oh believe me I am out and proud with those views!

Can you imagine the uproar ( rightly so) if a white person decided to identify as black, darkened their skin, changed their hair, then insisted that real black people should start calling themselves "cis- black".

Has already happened.

If you Google it I daresay you'll find many eloquent discussions of why the two are not comparable.

Why can't I identify as black when I am white?

I hate it when people refer to trans-women as 'man in a frock'. I have a trans friend who is very gentle and kind and has suffered all kinds of agony to feel brave to enough to dress in a way that makes her feel good about herself. The idea of someone muttering this at her as she walks by breaks my heart.

Ah, so it wasn’t a genuine question. It was goading to make a point.

Welcome to Mumsnet, where if it's not transphobia or borderline racism, they're not interested!

Cis is to trans what heterosexual is to homosexual.

The great irony is that people who are 'offended' by the term cis (they're not, they just like having another rod to beat trans women with) are the same people who've built their entire online identities around their opposition to trans women.

Zoomers, the lot of them.

So, roses, you seem to be saying that a trans woman knows what it feels like to have woman's gender identity (because how else would she know that that is what she feels?), but no-one else knows what a trans woman's gender identity feels like?

How does that work? How does the trans woman know that her feeling is 'woman' and not something entirely different?

After all, you have stated many times on this thread that no-one knows what other people feel like.

Women or man is the norm. If you need to differentiate then the norm then trans women/trans man will do.

If they feel like a man or women makes no difference as bioglogicaly they will always be why they started out as. Their birth sex.

Non Biological women commit violent crimes at the same rate as biological men from my understanding. Those statistics shouldn’t be lumped onto the biological women’s stats but also shouldn’t mean women should have to be labbed cis to differentiate. Not that we are supposed to differentiate apparently.

Ban gender and work purely on sex. You can be Lucy with a prostate if you want to be but your sex will remain male/man on all official documents.

How does that work? How does the trans woman know that her feeling is 'woman' and not something entirely different?

I already got asked this question.

I don't know.

If you really want to try and understand this, then you need to find an actual trans person who's open to being asked questions.

The great irony is that people who are 'offended' by the term cis (they're not, they just like having another rod to beat trans women with) are the same people who've built their entire online identities around their opposition to trans women.

I think it's the sort of thing when white people get upset if they're called "white" in an insulting tone. Yes, they don't sound nice, I get why you're annoyed but at the same time, it's not offensive really.

Welcome to Mumsnet, where if it's not transphobia or borderline racism, they're not interested!

I know Wiggy. It’s shocking. I had a suspicion the poster was doing that but I figured it’s worth replying, not for their benefit but the benefit of others reading who may well have a similar question genuinely.

What a sad life to lead.

I hate it when people refer to trans-women as 'man in a frock'. I have a trans friend who is very gentle and kind and has suffered all kinds of agony to feel brave to enough to dress in a way that makes her feel good about herself. The idea of someone muttering this at her as she walks by breaks my heart.

Do you know what, that is hurtful to refer to someone that way. And a few years ago, before the TRAs got all power crazy, women did accept transsexual people into their spaces. It was a courtesy, because women are nice like that generally. There weren't really any issues around it.

But that wasn't good enough for some of the TRAs who have insisted on continuing to push the boundaries of women further and further, taking more and more, until women have turned around and said 'actually, no, enough'. And here we are.

And women are having to say the words 'men cannot be women'.

But you have said many times that they wouldn't.

I'm not asking how they know, I'm asking why you think they know, when it is entirely at odds with everything else you are saying about awareness of how other people feel?

@Moonkissedlegs "What's wrong with saying 'transwomen are more likely to suffer domestic violence than women'?"

Because it's better than saying "People assinged male at birth whose gender does not match their birth sex are more likely to suffer domestic violence than those female people who do not have that mismatch."

If you really want to try and understand this, then you need to find an actual trans person who's open to being asked questions.

Or spend some time looking around online for the many sites and articles where trans people have gone to great lengths to explain this.

There is no one answer across the board, when humans are individuals.

I’d recommend doing that over trying to find a trans person to ask unless you’re capable of doing it respectfully. It’s really not a trans person’s job to try and educate someone out of transphobia in the way that it’s not a black person’s job to educate a white racist or women’s jobs to to try and convince men not to be sexist. That just puts more stress and responsibility on an already marginalised and discriminated against community.

Cis is to trans what heterosexual is to homosexual.

No - heterosexual for me means I am a 'a woman who is attracted to men'.

Cis for me means I am 'not a man who identifies as a woman'.

Apart from anything else i prefer to be defined in terms of what I am rather than what I am not. Especially when I am being defined against a man.

DadJoke they’re not actually asking the question. Read on. They’re just goading. Well explained though!

Because it's better than saying "People assinged male at birth whose gender does not match their birth sex are more likely to suffer domestic violence than those female people who do not have that mismatch."

You don't need to say any of that.

Transwomen and women: the distinction is already there and is already as clear as day.

I am a woman. That's it. No further qualifier needed. I am not going to be defined within the terms of the 'identity' of a man.

By the way no one is 'assigned' anything at birth. Sex is observed.

“There is no one answer across the board, when humans are individuals.“

And why sex should be the decider for categorising folk into groups when it comes to safety/ protection/vulnerability/sport - not some intangible belief or feeling that cannot be explained.

Or spend some time looking around online for the many sites and articles where trans people have gone to great lengths to explain this.

Do you mean like Shon Faye's definition of 'woman' which involves 'shifting constellations' etc?

Do you know what, that is hurtful to refer to someone that way. And a few years ago, before the TRAs got all power crazy, women did accept transsexual people into their spaces. It was a courtesy, because women are nice like that generally. There weren't really any issues around it.

Okay, let's for one moment accept your suggestion that trans women didn't experience any backlash when trying to enter women's spaces a few years ago.

1. Are you acknowledging that the comment 'man in a frock' is hurtful?

2. Are you saying that trans people asking to be included in spaces warrants remarks that you know to be hurtful, rather than discussion? Surely nasty remarks like 'man in a frock' suggest that you are transphobic, rather than genuinely concerned for the safety of women.

3. If I am correct, the biggest objection to trans women being allowed in women's only spaces is it makes women uncomfortable, or worse, can trigger actual trauma in some women (who exercise single-sex spaces for this exact reason.) Was this not a problem a few years ago?

4. Are you saying that there was never originally a problem with them being in women's spaces, but recently they have got "power crazy"? And now, as a response, you are saying they cannot have things you didn't originally have a problem with, because you feel they have become entitled … rather than addressing the things you feel speak of entitlement?

I don't agree with a lot of that and I don't think many gender critical people would either.

I’d recommend doing that over trying to find a trans person to ask unless you’re capable of doing it respectfully. It’s really not a trans person’s job to try and educate someone out of transphobia in the way that it’s not a black person’s job to educate a white racist or women’s jobs to to try and convince men not to be sexist. That just puts more stress and responsibility on an already marginalised and discriminated against community.

Oh - definite agreement! Sorry if it wasn't clear - you shouldn't be pressuring or expecting answers from trans people. Maybe you could make a broad post (not on here, for obvious reasons) and people could answer who want to?

I think Tumblr probably has the biggest trans community of all the sites, but you'd need a thick skin to ask it on there.

Lyndsey, I'm not actually one of the Spartacuses (Spartaci?), I just find it quite irritating that roses has repeatedly said (paraphrasing) 'Nobody knows how other people feel. Except trans people.' There is absolutely no logic to it.

I do think if people on both sides paid a bit more attention to what others said, and spent a bit more time examining their own views, this whole conversation would be much less fraught.

FFS, trans people and gender critical feminists don't actually really diverge very far until you get to the part where a person with a penis who feels more closely aligned with qualities that society deems feminine should be able to live life presenting according to this, and whether this should be as a gender non-conforming man or a conforming woman (and obviously the same but the other way round for a 'masculine' woman.)

Lyndsay - you could be considered pretty goady yourself for calling those here who disagree with you bigoted and transphobes because we disagree with your stance that Woman has been redefined and is now just an umbrella for for male women and female women - both subsets as valid as each other as “women” - I reject that - i imagine the majority do too, especially with self identification on the cards. All for a tiny amount of confused males who demand full access to every female area in life.

Apart from anything else i prefer to be defined in terms of what I am rather than what I am not. Especially when I am being defined against a man.

Oh, don't be ridiculous!

Anything can be defined in the terms of what it is not, it's just dependent on how you phrase it. I don't think anyone here has actually phrased cis as a "non-trans" person on here anyway.

Your definition of cis is ludicrous because it takes trans men into no account whatsoever, by the way.