To wonder what the point of cisgender is?

[Squatternutbosh]

I’ve just read an article where cisgender is described as “someone who identifies as the sex they were assigned at birth”. Is this an actual thing? Why is this even given a label? Surely if you were born male or female and you live as a male or female then this is what you “identify” as. (If you even feel the need to identify as anything, rather than just living your life as you).

It seems like everything must be given a label these days. The worlds gone fucking mad.

archeryannie just want to echo you... this is why I do not understand why so many people don't give a damn....

It makes no difference to my life. Why not just get over it?

PitterPatter if you've got daughters, and one of them goes for a women's scholarship, and it goes to a male because he's considered to be as much of a woman as your "cis" daughter, then it makes a difference to your life. Or if you have daughters, and one of them is interested in sport, and yet she will never win a sporting event because there are males competing in her sporting events who are considered to be as woman as your "cis" daughter,, then it affects your life. Or if, god forbid, you have daughters and one of them ever has cause to escape domestic violence or sexual violence, but there's nowhere she can find refuge or help, because all the DV shelters and rape crisis centres have males who are considered as woman as your "cis" daughter, then it affects your life. Or you have daughters, and one of them gets into trouble, and ends up in prison, and is forced to share a cell 23 hours a day with someone with a penis, because that person with a penis is considered as much of a woman as your "cis" daughter, then it affects your life.

Just imagine that a male identifies as female and plays tennis. That male, no matter the hormones, is likely to be stronger than Serena Williams, who is an incredible athlete and a strong, determined woman. Possibly the greatest female tennis player of all time. Said female identifying male qualifies to play at Wimbledon and thoroughly beats Serena, taking the women’s title. How is this fair?

If the male takes hormones, has had ‘bottom’ surgery, is convinced he’s female - is this fair? He’s still likely to have a physical advantage over Serena.

However, if we are accepting of gender identity, said male doesn’t have to adjust hormones or have surgery if any kind. In which case he’ll thoroughly trounce Serena.

I almost wish this would happen, because then the general public would see gender identity for the farce that it is

Ok JAPAB. Your answer is that you don’t care. Because what about the hypothetical trans who doesn’t like it right? All these women saying they find it offensive but who cares because a tiny subset of TRAs might be offended.

And once again, what women want becomes the last consideration for anyone.

How do you quickly refer to just the "cis" females but without using that term

Easy. Female. Woman. Those with the reproductive ability to nurture and produce young. Cunt-havers. Anything other than “cis”

I think I understand why you object to the idea of gender

Think what you like, @DadJoke, but you are wrong. You don't understand me at all.

You don't seem to realise that many of us here have been thinking and talking about the subject of gender versus sex for a very long time, for many of us decades. You appear to think that by coming on here and explaining things slowly and clearly to us dim females we will suddenly see the light.

I've changed my mind on this issue over the years. I've learnt a lot on mumsnet from other women, and I am very open to changing my mind again. However, I am very unlikely to change my mind as a result of some bloke coming on here and deciding he'd like to teach his grandmother to suck eggs.

Female doesn't work as a replacement for Cis-woman because transmen are female

Nevertheless trans and not trans is quite short, insults nobody, and avoids needing 70 different terms to cope with each gender variation .

Not and cis have the same number of letters

I’m NOT not-trans! I am a woman.

How is that an ok example...surely it wouldn’t be ok to call a trans person not-woman?

This what bothers me SO much! Why does my identity as a woman get redefined in order for a definition for trans to have a place? Why can they not coexist? Why can’t you have woman and trans woman? It is accurate. Who is that offending?

ArcheryAnnie Thu 05-Jul-18 10:04

... Tell that to all the butch lesbians who are currently being told that they are "self-hating straight trans men

yeah, i’m going to need to see some numbers, here.

Yes you are a woman. As a woman you can be trans or not. A woman who is trans thinks they are a man. It may be women who are trans suffer more violence and hate or more discrimation as a result of their identity and therefore we may wish to record data separately on such people

The oops here is of course that is trans and not trans are being used to describe women ( females who have been socialised as such)

SO trans woman= woman changing their gender identity to man , which can be compared to the group not trans women, whereas transwoman is a man who is changing their identity to woman

Because if trans ( and so cis) are modifiers of the noun woman then such people must be women in the first case

Hence I mean different things when I write trans woman and transwoman. To avoid insulting transwomen. Wish they would return the favour and not call me cis.

yeah, i’m going to need to see some numbers, here

Do your own homework, exWifebeginsat40 - it's all there on the internet to see.

Isn't it amazing: men say they are women, and no evidence apart from men's feelings is required. Women write about their abuse from men, and it means nothing without footnotes and citations. I wonder why this is?

Try this informative blog by a butch lesbian, ExWife. Or this article about lesbian erasure. Or just search "lesbian erasure transmen".

The effect of transgender ideology (and some individuals) on lesbians has come from both sides. It's been massive and destructive. On the one hand you have men who identify as women who insist that they're lesbians and demand lesbians suck their lady dick. On the other hand you have lesbians, particularly young lesbians, being told that they're actually men.

The lesbian community has always been small, and very few butches ever have any public profile. Young lesbians just aren't seeing the role models and, particularly if your family background endorses gender stereotypes, it's easy to understand how you might feel the problem is in you rather than in society. The loss of the women only spaces that made lesbian culture and community possible cannot be overstated.

Archery, it's like being in an abusive relationship. Women are simply not entitled to say no. We have to justify that no. Which gives the lie to any suggestion that this movement is progressive. It's not. It's misogynist to the core.

Pardon me for being utterly naive on my following question...but... Is there the same (or indeed any) lobbying from trans men wanting the same rights to be classified as men and have rights to men-only spaces, to compete in men’s sports etc etc?
This whole debate seems like it focuses only on women and redefining what we are and expecting us to concede or risk being labeled transphobic... ?

Transmen are generally quiet. They probably suffer from female socialisation.

In some cases, transmen, transwomen and women are considered to all be entitled to the same facility.

Fivelittle, the short answer is no. Men don't think transmen are any sort of men. Transmen don't demand any concessions from men. According to anecdotal reports, many,/most transmen use female only spaces because they're safer. Which is fine because, you know, they're female.

Because of male size, strength, aggression and sexual entitlement, they represent a threat to women. Transmen pose no threat to men.a

Female doesn't work as a replacement for Cis-woman because transmen are female

Are you taking the piss?

And I ask that question honestly because I can’t tell anymore.

FWIW I’d rather be called a cunt-owner than cis. Or woman. Just woman, no prefix needed.

World is going to hell in a handbag

MIdgebabe I’ve just read your other posts and now the one I referred to makes more sense

You're either male or female, there's nothing else. I might say i'd like to be a dog and start barking, if i told everyone i wanted to be identified as a dog would i be taken seriously or thought of as insane? Some people might indulge me and agree i was a dog . I still wouldn't be.

I think YAB slightly U... You don’t have to call yourself anything you don’t want to. But surely it doesn’t matter if other people want to use that label? It’s no skin off your nose... is it?

*CEADavies

I think YAB slightly U...wink You don’t have to call yourself anything you don’t want to. But surely it doesn’t matter if other people want to use that label? It’s no skin off your nose... is it?*

Racial slurs anyone? Words carry a fair bit of power.

@CEADavies

So, does your argument work in the reverse?