To wonder what the point of cisgender is?

[Squatternutbosh]

I’ve just read an article where cisgender is described as “someone who identifies as the sex they were assigned at birth”. Is this an actual thing? Why is this even given a label? Surely if you were born male or female and you live as a male or female then this is what you “identify” as. (If you even feel the need to identify as anything, rather than just living your life as you).

It seems like everything must be given a label these days. The worlds gone fucking mad.

Native Americans? Were women Chiefs? Did women generally go with the warriors fighting? I honestly don’t know - i got the impression from John Wayne they had pretty traditional roles.

How do you know that they are psychologically men

What do you mean 'psychologically men'? Do you mean like 'ladybrain'? Because there is no evidence for female brains in men's bodies.

You don't have to ignore sex-based oppression in order to factor in transphobia. Just as you don't have to ignore homophobia in order to factor in racism, or misogyny to talk about classism,

But they are different issues, with different roots and need different solutions. The gay or black rights movements never tried to appropriate the struggles of women's oppression, or make out they were more oppressed and than this group or that group. They are there to campaign for their rights and want to look at the root causes and solutions to their oppression. The trans movement appropriates whatever they can, to make it about themselves.

Dad joke - why would we have to refer to ourselves as ‘not-trans’ though? Why is any reference at all necessary? I find it quite hypocritical that the ones that are so insistent that we label ourselves are also the ones that are fighting to NOT be labelled.

@ArcheryAnnie no one is stopping you from using the category woman as a self-descriptor. It only becomes important under limited circumstances. I don't feel like a man in my head because of my mind, but because of my body - that simply means I am a cisman.

My own view is that "male " and "female" should be reserved for sex, and "woman" and "man" for gender. In 99% of cases, they match.

Well, you can psychologically feel like a unicorn if you'd like, but a unicorn isn't defined by psychology.
Neither is a woman.
A unicorn looks like a horse and has a horn. 'Unicorn' is a descriptor for something physical, like sex is.
Yes. So me "feeling" like a unicorn is irrelevant.
And what's in my head may be the most important part of me (I quite agree) but I have not been sidelined at work, or called dirty names or been physically attacked by men because of what's in my head.
And you are mistaken when you imply that women defending their boundaries is them claiming to be the most oppressed in some hierarchy.
Yes, yes, nobody should be oppressed, but there are 2 sexes of human, and one sex has pathologically kept the other one down. That's just a fact.
It is not and never has been women beating up transsexuals or bashing gay men so the implication that women are somehow responsible for the oppression of non gender conforming people is absurd.
All I am saying is call yourself what you like, wear what you like, but don't presume to re label one half of the human race based on an unprovable theory.
I

For reference, it was this article that I was reading
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/scarlett-johansson-faces-backlash-over-transgender-role-11425986

Seasawride

It didn’t stop the women playing their sport - they just stopped using the changing/showers if they knew the TW was around. Was a few years ago and the TW moved on.

I am a member now of a large busy club with communal changing rooms. I’ve wondered whst would happen if a TW joined and insisted on using the female area. There is a seperate unisex family area too.

It’s odd you’ve chosen to ask here, a website that is known for being very antagonistic and closed minded to trans issues, instead of doing a quick five second google which would have answered your query.

@squatternutbosh the only reason you might be referred to as a ciswoman is if you are in a discussion where such a distinction is necessary. The reason that it arises so frequently here is because you discuss these issues so often. Usually "woman" will suffice.

So, I might say "transwomen are more likely to suffer domestic violence than ciswomen" (I have no idea if that's true).

There is no need to be offended by that usage, any more than you should be offended by your sexuality being referred to.

They mean that they feel that they are the other gender, no definers or stereotypes applied.

Do you mean sex here? How can you have gender as a universal, objective, non stereotype, non socially constructed thing?

And you can't be the other sex, it's impossible.

So, I might say "transwomen are more likely to suffer domestic violence than ciswomen" (I have no idea if that's true)..

What's wrong with saying 'transwomen are more likely to suffer domestic violence than women'?

@ArcheryAnnie no one is stopping you from using the category woman as a self-descriptor.

Shows how much you know, DadJoke. For quite a long time now I, and many other women, have been abused and berated for not being willing to use the term "cis woman" for ourselves, despite us making it very clear that those terms don't apply.

Cis and trans will only ever be applied to molecules for me

Likewise. I hated organic chemistry, trying to sort out the bloody things by looking at the models in a mirror... Jesus wept.

I went to school before the Worldwide Web was a thing.

There was immense diversity in how gendered the nations were; in the ones that had the strictest gender roles, there were often additional gender roles that could be taken up. They were found less in communities which had less strict gender roles.

My understanding was that, in many of these communities, there were no gender 'roles' as such. All positions were open to all, and weren't viewed as the job of a particular gender. I am aware that some believed that particular genders had higher spiritual inclination, though.

The idea of gender roles, to many of the communities, was introduced by invaders. However, they did have a multitude of genders in each community though the names were often different.

Been a long time since I've studied this though, so open to correction!

But how would they know that what they’re feeling is what folk of the opposite sex feels - it just doesn’t make sense. A male feeling out of sorts with maleness, with their body, being desperately unhappy - none of this means they are a woman instead.

This is the sort of question you should be asking an actual trans person who is open to receiving these sorts of questions, not me.

I'm not trans. I don't know.

Then why the constant insistence that people who don't identify as trans (or non-binary, which most non-binary people I know, or know of, see as a type of trans) must accept the label "cis"?

I'm sorry, I've never heard someone insist that somebody who identifies as elsewhere or outside of the gender spectrum refer to themselves as cisgender.

Is it like when dickheads people say that the gender is made up and they should just go by the pronouns associated with their sex?

However, if I’m assuming good faith:

It’s a descriptor used to denote the ‘norm’ when discussing an issue that deviates from the ‘norm’, that isn’t particularly meaningful or useful when you’re not in a debate about the issue.

When people are talking about individuals with autism, they often used the word ‘neurotypical’ or NT as an easy way to refer to people who aren’t non-neurotypical. It’s a way of referring to people without autism while taking into account neither is better or worse than the other (so that people don’t have to use ‘non autistic people’ or ‘normal’ (which is obviously very insulting).

So those who use the word would see you as neurotypical, but it may never come up unless you’re discussing people who aren’t.

Do you see the correlation with cis? It’s rarely used unless in a discussion around trans issues or by someone who is always aware of gender issues. You don’t need to call yourself anything you don’t want to. But kicking back against a very normal and useful word that makes discussing trans issues easier and clearer is odd.

I don't want men to redefine me.

Can you imagine the uproar ( rightly so) if a white person decided to identify as black, darkened their skin, changed their hair, then insisted that real black people should start calling themselves "cis- black".

It's beyond crazy

Since when did transfolk get the right to label everyone with a new descriptive name which only came into being to let folk know that the vast majority of prople are not trans. Do we have a similar descriptive word for those who aren’t Scientologists? Those who aren’t convicted felons? For those who aren’t traffic wardens?

What's wrong with saying 'transwomen are more likely to suffer domestic violence than women'? confused

Because many people believe trans women are women. Saying the sentence you just used above implies that trans women are separate to ‘real women’. Using trans and cis provides a way of referring to and discussing both trans women and women from birth while not trying to place either in a hierarchy or suggest one is more of a woman than another. Trans and cis women are women, the umbrella is women. So your sentence would make much sense to a person who views trans women as every bit as much of a woman as a cis woman.

Do you understand? Or were you not seeking to?

It’s very odd that the type of people to be in uproar believing that trans woman are trying to force them to refer to themselves as ‘cis’ are usually the kind to force their own labels on trans women instead of calling them by their preferred names/labels.

I’ve never met anyone who has been passionately anti-cis (because everyone should get to call themselves what they want and I reject cis!) who is equally passionate about calling others by how they wish to be named.

As evidenced by the many ‘trans women who refer to themselves as woman are deluded/men’ posts.

Because many people believe trans women are women. Saying the sentence you just used above implies that trans women are separate to ‘real women’. Using trans and cis provides a way of referring to and discussing both trans women and women from birth while not trying to place either in a hierarchy or suggest one is more of a woman than another. Trans and cis women are women, the umbrella is women.

Well you have managed to sum up why 'cis' is a load of old bollocks in a nutshell there, so well done.

Transwomen are not women.

Since when did transfolk get the right to label everyone with a new descriptive name which only came into being to let folk know that the vast majority of prople are not trans.

They don’t have the right.

Nobody believe they do.

You have a very loose idea of what the term ‘right’ means. You’re kicking back against thin air.

Ah, so it wasn’t a genuine question. It was goading to make a point.

Maybe in future you should just come out with your nasty disgusting views instead of phrasing them as a faux naive ‘oh I just don’t understand!’ question. So that people see you for what you are and don’t waste their time responding in good faith.

Thankfully your views mean I value your opinion very little.

Do you see the correlation with cis? It’s rarely used unless in a discussion around trans issues or by someone who is always aware of gender issues. You don’t need to call yourself anything you don’t want to. But kicking back against a very normal and useful word that makes discussing trans issues easier and clearer is odd.

It’s not a normal word. And it’s necessary for cis to be used so that “woman” is redefined from being an afult female to just an identy anyone can opt in and out of as they please.

It’s not a normal word.

Well, it’s been used since the nineties in reference to gender issues. And it’s derived from Latin, cis being the opposite to trans.

What do you think makes a word abnormal?

Using trans and cis provides a way of referring to and discussing both trans women and women from birth while not trying to place either in a hierarchy or suggest one is more of a woman than another. Trans and cis women are women, the umbrella is women.

I see you are backing my comment that cis is necessary so that the meaning of “woman” can be redefined.