To wonder what the point of cisgender is?

[Squatternutbosh]

I’ve just read an article where cisgender is described as “someone who identifies as the sex they were assigned at birth”. Is this an actual thing? Why is this even given a label? Surely if you were born male or female and you live as a male or female then this is what you “identify” as. (If you even feel the need to identify as anything, rather than just living your life as you).

It seems like everything must be given a label these days. The worlds gone fucking mad.

There wasn't one 'community' they were actual bloody people, living spread across a huge continent, all with their own traditions, thoughts, and feelings - you know, just like people now.

Oh God, I'm sorry - I didn't mean to imply that they were all one group - that was phrased really awfully

Huge apologies all round for that - that was really careless of me.

It’s meaningless, I was born a female so I am female. I don’t identify as anything I am genetically a female..I hate that term cisgender it’s crap.

Out of interest, are you in the US, rose?

No, I'm in the UK!

But I think interaction with lots of American people has taken its toll, because you're probably the fifth person to ask me that since I've been on Mumsnet

Rose I asked because “conversion camps” are largely an American thing. And they’re awful. My understanding is that they are mainly targeted at young gay people, but I can imagine how trans identifying people might also be “treated” there.

All the more reason for gender dysphoria to be a recognised medical condition, rather than being something you can be “comverted” from. And all the more reason to fight gender stereotypes, thus reducing the need for many to trans at all.

It's not really any different to the term straight. A bit superfluous considering that it applies to the majority of people. The only way I have ever seen cis (or straight for that matter) being used is to shut people down 'white straight, middle class, cis, male'.

@rosesandflowers1

But the trans agenda largely reinforces gender stereotypes doesn't it? Trans women with boob jobs, dresses, makeup, facial feminisation surgery, pouty photos on Twitter?

But the trans agenda largely reinforces gender stereotypes doesn't it? Trans women with boob jobs, dresses, makeup, facial feminisation surgery, pouty photos on Twitter?

I think there are several reasons for this:

1. Trans people that we all know are likely to be famous people - e.g. Caitlin Jenner. Like all famous people, there's a lot of pressure to look conventionally attractive anyway.

2. Humans are pretty shallow, unfortunately. If they're going to pay for surgery lots will opt for the conventionally attractive option.

3. If they've associated things with certain genders since birth, which unfortunately people still do, it might make them more comfortable.

4. I think this is the most important one - the more feminine/masculine they look, the less likely they'll be misgendered or harassed in public. It's very unfortunate But gender stereotypes are still quite widely accepted and if you wear dresses and heels you're less likely to be mistaken as a man, just as if you cut your hair very short and wear typically "masculine" clothes you're less likely to be mistaken for a woman. Transphobic people are often sexist... have you seen the video of the (cis) woman being denied access to the woman's bathroom?

Often these would just be mistakes and once corrected, the person would revert to using the correct pronouns, but there's also the unfortunate reality that if someone recognises a person as trans, they might be malicious or harass them. So lots of trans people, for safety and for peace of mind, will conform.

@SmileEachDay - yes, they are much bigger in America because their current VP is a morally bankrupt bigot who supports it It's absolutely horrific, I agree, and it needs to be abolished.

I'm talking about when families send vulnerable children to be psychologically tortured into pretending they're not gay or trans, not having a chat with a doctor.

Have you watched the TedX talk by Susie Green, the CEO of Mermaids? She talked about her child's transition in it. It's an incredibly sad story, but not for the reasons she thinks it is - it's a story of an effeminate child growing up with a homophobic father and a well-meaning but clueless mother, and the gay conversion therapy of that child that follows. It's all done with the best intentions, but it's horrific gay conversion therapy nonetheless. (All conversion therapy is done with "good intentions" - eg fundamentalist parents who are worried they children will go to hell, etc - but it's still horrific, and still conversion therapy.)

A note to the mods: this is all well-documented stuff talked about by Suzie Green herself. I'm not outing anyone, or making any personal remarks that the family concerned haven't already made about themselves.

But if you take away all the gender stuff, and just let people express themselves as they wish, then all you are left with is... Biology. Which is why transwomen are not women. Because they are men.

*Oh God, I'm sorry - I didn't mean to imply that they were all one group - that was phrased really awfully blush

Huge apologies all round for that - that was really careless of me.*

Rose - have you seen this funny Tracey Ulman sketch - reminds me of you.

www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/06/26/tracey_ullman_hosts_woke_support_group_on_bbc_show.html

@ArcheryAnnie - no, I haven't. I'll have a look for it. I've read accounts from children who have survived it and reports on what happens there, but, interestingly, I don't think I've ever read or watched anything from the viewpoint of parents.

But if you take away all the gender stuff, and just let people express themselves as they wish, then all you are left with is... Biology. Which is why transwomen are not women. Because they are men.

What do you mean when you say 'take away all the gender stuff'? Do you mean stereotypes by 'stuff'?

I haven't seen it, no, and the video isn't loading, but based on the synopsis I can imagine what you're getting at.

Comedian Tracey Ullman hosts a "support group" for people who are so "woke" that they are finding it impossible to have any fun at all.

I implied something offensive by my wording. Apologising for doing that makes me a decent person, not someone incapable of fun...

Yes I mean stereotypes. The difference between men and women is biology. That is what women are oppressed on the basis of: their female bodies. Nothing else.

They have put up with being oppressed in this way for thousands of years. And yet are now being told that 'biology doesn't matter' its your 'innate gender identity' that is what is important.

I do not have a gender identity. If I were asked how I know I'm a woman I look down at my body. Im a woman because of my body and the life experiences that stem directly from that. There's no mysterious "woman essence" going on.

To accept the label cisgender means to accept that I identify with damaging stereotypes of femininity. And I don't. No feminist can ever be cis.

Incidentally, it's clear that cis is used by woke, genderists as shorthand for boring mumsy types. However the truth is nearly everyone is nonbinary, because no one is a walking stereotype.

As Archery says: "Cisgender" is there to normalise the idea that women and girls have some sort of innate structural privilege over men, if those men are gender nonconforming. This is obviously ludicrous.

I just think it's really patronising when the assumption is made that people who object to their sex being re labelled without their consent just don't understand the problems trans people face.
It's not that we don't understand it's hard to be dysphoric, or even that it's hard to look like one thing and be treated like another.
Hell, in my head I'm Scarleyt Johanson but I'm treated like a slightly overweight middle aged woman. It's very upsetting.
The thing is, I understand life is hard for many people in many ways, but the reality is that women are women, lesbians are gay women, people with gender dysphoria are sadly Ill and need a bit if looking after, and men in frocks are men in frocks.
At the end of the day it doesn't matter how you "identify".
I can't identify out of my sex, it just IS. Most days I wish I bloody could.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter how you "identify".
I can't identify out of my sex, it just IS. Most days I wish I bloody could.

This.

rosesandflowers1 her TedX talk is here:

This is, in my view (but not that of her or her now-adult child) gay conversion therapy presented as something celebratory. I find it incredibly difficult to watch.

Cis - a prefix occurring in loanwords from Latin meaning “on the near side of; on this side of” (cisalpine); on this model, used in the formation of compound words (cisatlantic)

a prefix meaning “on the same side of,” referring to the alignment of one’s gender identity with one’s biological sex assigned at birth (cisgender; cissexual)

Trans - a prefix occurring in loanwords from Latin (transcend; transfix); on this model, used with the meanings “across,” “beyond,” “through,” “changing thoroughly,” “transverse,” in combination with elements of any origin: transisthmian; trans-Siberian; transempirical; transvalue.

a prefix meaning “on the other side of,” referring to the misalignment of one’s gender identity with one's biological sex assigned at birth:
transgender; transsexual.

It's latin, if you're happy to call someone Trans then you must also be happy to be called Cis, it's not an insult (though it can be used as an insult just like Trans can be) and it refers to men and women.

People can identify how they wish however I am not a cis woman. I’m a woman and would not accept being labelled as a cis woman.

It's latin, if you're happy to call someone Trans then you must also be happy to be called Cis, it's not an insult (though it can be used as an insult just like Trans can be) and it refers to men and women.

Neko but what about people who have no gender identity, and indeed reject the whole concept? If you insist on calling me "cis", then you should 50% of the time also refer to me as "trans", because both equally (don't) apply.

I just think it's really patronising when the assumption is made that people who object to their sex being re labelled without their consent just don't understand the problems trans people face.
It's not that we don't understand it's hard to be dysphoric, or even that it's hard to look like one thing and be treated like another.

I'm not saying you don't understand their problems, though I'd still say your understanding might be somewhat limited if you haven't experienced it.

I'm saying you don't understand what it's like to be trans in the purest sense of the word. You do not know what their gender identity feels like. Which, brings us onto this;

men in frocks are men in frocks.

How do you know that they are psychologically men - if you are incapable of knowing?

If somebody says they are not a man because of a psychological understanding they have, I cannot counter that because I simply do not have that understanding of their gender.

Yes I mean stereotypes. The difference between men and women is biology. That is what women are oppressed on the basis of: their female bodies. Nothing else.

Due to gender stereotypes, a lot of misogyny will manifest at gender presentation, not sex. Mainly because you can't really see if someone has a penis or not in polite society.

There's loads of fascinating posts about it: trans women/men either coming to terms with misogynistic comments or actions, of coming to terms with the fact that they Nov longer experience them.

They have put up with being oppressed in this way for thousands of years. And yet are now being told that 'biology doesn't matter' its your 'innate gender identity' that is what is important.

I'd say that 'put up with' is a bit of a downplay, but to focus on your point-

You don't have to ignore sex-based oppression in order to factor in transphobia. Just as you don't have to ignore homophobia in order to factor in racism, or misogyny to talk about classism, but I think people worry about sex and gender based oppression having negative effects on each other because they overlap so often.

But we don't have to ignore one to focus on the other. We have to work on eradicating every type of discrimination. Nobody benefits from petty play-fighting where different oppressed groups try to downplay the struggles of, or discriminate against, each other - except oppressors.

Trans - a prefix occurring in loanwords from Latin (transcend; transfix); on this model, used with the meanings “across,” “beyond,” “through,” “changing thoroughly,” “transverse,” in combination with elements of any origin: transisthmian; trans-Siberian; transempirical; transvalue.a prefix meaning “on the other side of,” referring to the misalignment of one’s gender identity with one's biological sex assigned at birth:
transgender; transsexual.
It's latin, if you're happy to call someone Trans then you must also be happy to be called Cis

No. I call people "Trans" if thats what they prefer to be called. No skin off my nose. I know they can't transform (there's another one) sex but I'm happy to call people trans if they want.
I choose not to have my sex given a qualifier, Latin or otherwise.

but what about people who have no gender identity, and indeed reject the whole concept?

Cis means your gender identity corresponds with your sex.
Trans means your gender identity directly opposes your sex, if you will. So you identify as a man, but have a vagina.

There is all sorts of terminology for people elsewhere or outside of the gender spectrum if you want it. Alternately, some people just opt for 'gender queer' or no label at all.

'Trans' and 'cis' are not a binary in which they are the only two options.

We should scrap all trans/male/female/women/man and Just call people penis or vulva. Problem solved vulva toilets and penis toilets.

How do you know that they are psychologically men - if you are incapable of knowing?
How do you know I'm not psychologically a unicorn?
You don't, and it doesn't matter anyway. You can look at me and know I'm a woman. I can't change that so what's in my head is irrelevant.