To wonder what the point of cisgender is?

[Squatternutbosh]

I’ve just read an article where cisgender is described as “someone who identifies as the sex they were assigned at birth”. Is this an actual thing? Why is this even given a label? Surely if you were born male or female and you live as a male or female then this is what you “identify” as. (If you even feel the need to identify as anything, rather than just living your life as you).

It seems like everything must be given a label these days. The worlds gone fucking mad.

So what is it that transwomen have in common with women then? What is it?! This is a very important question that needs a very clear answer, in the current state we are in. Just 'oh ask a transwoman about their feelz' doesn't cut the mustard when we are talking about social policy, it just doesn't.

How else do you expect to understand what trans and cis women have in common? Surely '[asking] a trans woman about their feelz' is the only way you could possibly hope to know?

More importantly, I don't think the answer will ever really be 'clear' to you. Someone else's gender isn't really something you can learn, or get.

How about all the people who have thought of themselves as trans, or potentially trans, then have come to a rejection of gender identity as a thing entirely?

Again, their gender identity is entirely their own business.

Onto rejecting the whole thing as a construct, thus is interesting because all the people I've met in real life who view gender as a construct see this as a reason to support trans people, rather than otherwise.

To put it concisely, just because something is a social construct doesn't mean people can't operate differently within it.

So being cis means you dont have gender dysphoria? Isn't that a transphobic thing to say?

Being cis means your gender identity corresponds to your sex. Quite obviously I was pointing out that, as a cis person, I don't experience body dysphoria as a trans person might.

It makes no difference to my life. Why not just get over it?

PitterPatter if you've got daughters, and one of them goes for a women's scholarship, and it goes to a male because he's considered to be as much of a woman as your "cis" daughter, then it makes a difference to your life. Or if you have daughters, and one of them is interested in sport, and yet she will never win a sporting event because there are males competing in her sporting events who are considered to be as woman as your "cis" daughter,, then it affects your life. Or if, god forbid, you have daughters and one of them ever has cause to escape domestic violence or sexual violence, but there's nowhere she can find refuge or help, because all the DV shelters and rape crisis centres have males who are considered as woman as your "cis" daughter, then it affects your life. Or you have daughters, and one of them gets into trouble, and ends up in prison, and is forced to share a cell 23 hours a day with someone with a penis, because that person with a penis is considered as much of a woman as your "cis" daughter, then it affects your life.

Gender politics is fighting over the crumbs.
The real prize would be sexual equality and then all of this would frankly be superfluous.

Someone else's gender isn't really something you can learn, or get.

Then why don't you accept that many women here don't have a gender identity at all, rosesandflowers1?

More importantly, I don't think the answer will ever really be 'clear' to you. Someone else's gender isn't really something you can learn, or get.

Exactly. So why the fuck are people proposing to mess around with women's hard fought for sex based rights on the basis of 'gender'?

In what way?

You don't get sent to conversion therapy for being cis. You don't get chucked out of your house for being cis. You don't experience body dysphoria because you're cis. You don't pretend to your parents that you're cis if you're really not. "Cis" isn't a porn category. You're not less likely to get a job because you're cis.

Quite blankly, you're not going to experience transphobia as a cis person.

You can be a straight white upper class person and be trans, obviously. But that doesn't erase the problems you will face for being trans, though it might help to be privileged in other aspects. Similarly, you might experience those things for different reasons - eg, you might be thrown out for being gay, instead - but not because you're cis.

sarah It's to do with organic chemistry.

Yes and no. ( And I am a chemist). Yes these are terms in chemistry, but also documented in ancient Roman texts outlining marching routes for soldiers, so transversing optional routes across mountain terrain for instance would be referred to as cis and trans.

Someone else's gender isn't really something you can learn, or get.

I think that's basically what I said? You know, about my friend Bob?

I support trans people's right to equal treatment and free speech. I don't support well meaning liberals (and bless you you sound like you are trying so hard with the best of intentions) re-labelling women (adult human female) as Cis.
As you said, this makes assumptions about things you can't possibly know.
It's meaningless.

How else do you expect to understand what trans and cis women have in common? Surely '[asking] a trans woman about their feelz' is the only way you could possibly hope to know?

Have you not come across Shon Faye's 'shifting constellation' definition of 'woman'? That is the best they can come up with. Not good enough.

Everyone needs a label now. Like supermarket products.

You don't get sent to conversion therapy for being cis

You don’t get sent to “conversion therapy” for being trans!! The medical profession are too scared of being called transphobic to do anything other than validate trans feelings. The GRA reforms are aiming to demedicalise the process further.

Which is awful, because it means it will be even more difficult for those with genuine dysphoria to access non agendered counselling. That’s like someone with anorexia only being able to access counselling that validates their feelings about their body and advises them how to achieve their aims.

All my life I have been taught not to apply qualifiers to women and men that can cause offense, show prejudice or are untrue.

Women are bearers of XX chromosomes and men are bearers of XY chromosomes. When I speak other languages, there are words that have precise equivalences of woman (femme, Frau, mujer, donna...) and man (homme, Mann, hombre, uomo...). Woman and man have precise meanings (XX, XY adult human) in plenty of other English speaking jurisdictions.

There is no way of changing this! Meaning is meaning....

Then why don't you accept that many women here don't have a gender identity at all

I'm sorry if it's coming across that I'm saying your experiences are invalid; they're not. I'm saying that your experiences can't invalidate someone else's.

Obviously your gender identity (or absence of gender identity) is, as a trans person's is, ludicrous for me to try to combat - because I will never be able to experience it.

Where did it come across that I'm not respecting it? Have I used incorrect pronouns for someone, or was it something I said?

Exactly. So why the fuck are people proposing to mess around with women's hard fought for sex based rights on the basis of 'gender'?

So, your question is:

"As I, and some other people, cannot understand a group of people's experience of gender, why are people proposing that we factor these people into policies and laws?"

Or, "I don't get it, so why should they get to have an input?"

The proposals have to be looked at in detail so they won't be pernicious to either side, but it's ridiculously selfish to suggest that your lack of understanding should cancel out the need for a discussion.

You don't get sent to conversion therapy for being cis.

Tell that to all the butch lesbians who are currently being told that they are "self-hating straight trans men". Also the entire "lets affirm trans children" movement, spearheaded by the likes of Mermaids, is one massive gay conversion therapy project.

You don't get chucked out of your house for being cis.

...you've never met any lesbian or gay people, have you?

You don't experience body dysphoria because you're cis.

Neither do many (most?) trans people.

You don't pretend to your parents that you're cis if you're really not.

You don't seem to be aware that in plenty of circles, particularly amongst young people, "trans" is a high-status position.

"Cis" isn't a porn category.

AHAHAHAHAHAHA. Tell that to 51% of the population.

You're not less likely to get a job because you're cis.

Again, tell that to 51% of the population. Add in "and you are likely to be paid less when you are employed, too."

You're not less likely to get a job because you're cis.

Nope that's right, no woman has ever suffered discrimination in the work place. Are you for real?

And what of Pip Bunce, who worked his way up in Credit Suisse as a man, decided that on some days he identifies as Pippa and has won awards for 'women in business'. Or Munroe Bergdorf, who with almost zero film making experience, was selected by the BFI to represent women film makers?

To repeat literally the last sentence I typed:

Similarly, you might experience those things for different reasons - eg, you might be thrown out for being gay, instead - but not because you're cis.

Cis people can experience those things. But not because they're cis, because they're something else.

@rosesandflowers1

Women have been oppressed for millenia due to their biology, their sex. 'Gender identity' has been a tool used over the years to keep this sex based oppression going.

The sex based protections that women have fought for have come about because women have been oppressed because of their biology. Nothing to do with gender identity. When talking about ensuring that these sex based protections are upheld, gender identity is completely irrelevant.

Women are oppressed and discriminated against because they are women, rose

Because of their sex - and sometimes because of their gender presentations and the assumptions that leads society to make.

You don’t get sent to “conversion therapy” for being trans!!

I'm talking about when families send vulnerable children to be psychologically tortured into pretending they're not gay or trans, not having a chat with a doctor.

It's an absolutely horrific practice. I think about 50% of children commit suicide throughout the process in some of these conversion camps - disgustingly, something that many parents are told before they sign their children up for it. They've been known to use methods such as electric shocking to condition children, encourage suicide as an alternative option as being LGBTQ and there was that one horrific story where they told a boy to rape one of the girls there to "prove" he was now straight.

I can't believe it's still legal

Women are oppressed and discriminated against because they are women, rose

Of course they are. It's sad and horrific. We need to work to eradicate all types of discrimination - but the oppression of one marginalised group will not cancel out that of another.

Gender identity' has been a tool used over the years to keep this sex based oppression going.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this, but ultimately I disagree with you as of now.

Societies in which there has been complete freedom of gender identity, for example the ancient Native American community, often have a higher level of respect for women than societies surrounding them. Similarly, the way the Ancient Romans treated trans people or people elsewhere on the gender spectrum was cruel, as was the way they treated their women. Misogyny and transphobia often go hand in hand, because, I think, lots of people view gender and sex as the same thing and then the prejudices overlap.

You don't get sent to conversion therapy for being cis

Tell that to the lesbians 'correctively raped' or in a much smaller sense, to me, being sent to the head because I didn't want to wear a skirt to school.

You don't get chucked out of your house for being cis.

Tell that to the girls who get pregnant and are chucked out, or the boys like my dad who hit 17 and were expected to contribute to the house by going out to work or leave it.

You don't experience body dysphoria because you're cis.

Tell that to 14 year old me sleeping on her front because her growing boobs were the 'wrong shape' or any of the other 100 reasons my body was 'wrong' growing up

You don't pretend to your parents that you're cis if you're really not.

Course they do - how many girls put on that bloody frilly dress for parties, even if they don't want to. How many boys traipse off to football despite not really giving a damn?

"Cis" isn't a porn category.

No.. that would just be every woman. Short, tall, fat, thin, pregnant etc. All the abusive words to describe women. Women are porn.

You're not less likely to get a job because you're cis.

If you're a woman you certainly are less likely. And the quotas set aside to correct that? Well they're to be shared now.

The privilege isn't being 'cis' it's being male.

Cisgender my arse. It's male and female. If anyone bought it up to me in RL, I'd have a problem with it and tell them so.

for example the ancient Native American community,

FUck me Rose - could you try to be a bit more offensive?

There wasn't one 'community' they were actual bloody people, living spread across a huge continent, all with their own traditions, thoughts, and feelings - you know, just like people now.

Out of interest, are you in the US, rose?