To wonder what the point of cisgender is?

[Squatternutbosh]

I’ve just read an article where cisgender is described as “someone who identifies as the sex they were assigned at birth”. Is this an actual thing? Why is this even given a label? Surely if you were born male or female and you live as a male or female then this is what you “identify” as. (If you even feel the need to identify as anything, rather than just living your life as you).

It seems like everything must be given a label these days. The worlds gone fucking mad.

Moonkissedlegs gender identity is not like relgion. A religion is a set of beliefs about the outside world, and gender identity, like sexuality, is a lived experience. If you have the luxury of your body and mind matching, then your gender identity matches your sex, and it's no more apparent than water to a fish.

DadJoke to many, many people around the world, religion is a lived experience. It affects every aspect of their lives, what they do, what they eat, who they marry, how they go about their day. For many people, faith is an absolutely intrinsic, inseperable part of their inner being.

For many other people around the world, religion is a load of oppressive made-up bollocks, of course.

Same with gender.

I do have a religious faith, but I don't require that anyone else follows or even respects my religious faith. I don't believe in gender identity, think it's a load of made-up oppressive, sexist, homophobic bollocks.

My internal gender identity doesn't match my biological sex because I don't have an internal gender identity. There's nothing to match.

ArcheryAnnie

A set of beliefs is unlike, say, your sexuality. You could say you "feel" you are attracted to women, but it's not a choice. It used to be thought that being attracted to the opposite gender/sex was natural and the idea that people were heterosexual was a nonsense - there were people who were normal, and deviants. Being gay or being a woman is not like having a religion.

I'll try another analogy. It never crosses your mind that you have the right number of legs. You just do, it's right for you, so the idea that you have a feeling that you have the wrong number of legs is just ridiculous to you. That's because your internal model of your body matches your mind. If you had had dysphoria, you'd "feel" that you had the wrong number of legs, and notice the mismatch. Because your gender identity matches your body, you don't "feel" it in the same way.

I think I understand why you object to the idea of gender, it's because it's associated with gender expression and societal roles which you rightly reject. That's conflating gender identity with gender expression.

Midgebabe

"dadjoke so you are saying I don't notice my gender identity because I am well matched? And I think you also said gender identity was immutable?""

It's innate rather than immutable. Think of sexuality.

That does not tie with my experiance. As a teenager I identified as a boy, called David. If today I wrote you a short sketch of myself, you would probably think I was a man. People from other cultures who do not recognise my name as female assume I am male. Can be amusing when we meet for the first time.

That's because your gender expression is that traditionally associated with men. That's an oppressive social construct.

Unfortunatly the shape of my body meant that I couldn't get away with that. So I grew up and accepted my sex is a woman but beyond some obvious biological features being a woman is completely orthogonal to my identity.

I suspect that realising that your body is just fine as it is and that only stupid people apply gender sterotypes or let them restrict what you do is a much healthier approach to this than saying my body is wrong and I am a man really.

But if you want to tell woman that they are wrong in what they think and feel, well that tells me all I need to know about you .

Because of societal pressures to conform to gender stereotypes, we often think that it's us who are wrong rather than society. Many gay people denied their sexuality before coming to terms with it. Because we wrongly expect gender to be expressed in a certain way, instead of accepting our gender, and expressing it how we like we try to twist our gender identity to match our gender expression even though it feels wrong. It sounds like in your journey, you came to terms with it, and now you are happy in your body as a woman.

The visceral rejection of the concept gender identity is based on the visceral rejection of gender expression - but one is innate and the other is not.

If I say you have a sexuality, I am not telling you how to think or feel. If I tell you you are gay when you are heterosexual, then I am.

If anyone is lurking/reading this thread who is a transwoman, pre or post or no planned op:

I’m cis, and I consider you a woman. You’d be welcome into any female-only space I frequent 😊 your womanhood is not dependent on your genitals or your sex at birth.

Not everyone is anti trans on Mumsnet. Most of us who aren’t just cba to engage with the circular arguments on these threads.

But I want to make my stance clear, and I encourage any other lurkers who support trans women and trans men to offer a message of support too. Perhaps it’ll make a small difference to the perception of MN.

So females can’t have the ownership of the word woman

Which means an adult human female

So it’s the correct term but we now have to share this with a very few males so they can carry on with the delusion they are just like us and are also women just others haven’t noticed

It’s other words it’s utter bollocks

No your gender isn’t determined by you being born with a penis or vagina or how you perceive yourself and want to present yourself

But being male, female, woman or man is

It’s basic and factual biology

Cis is a word used by transgendered people to describe natal (wo)men.
It is only necessary in complicated conversations about gender.
However I do feel it is used politically to undermine hard won women's rights by a small minority of trans activists.

your womanhood is not dependent on your genitals or your sex at birth.

What is it dependent on then?

Not everyone is anti trans on Mumsnet. Most of us who aren’t just cba to engage with the circular arguments on these threads

Any lurkers please not that theabove is correct in saying that not everyone is anti trans on mumsnet

The vast vast vast vast majority are not...but some of these people CAN be arsed to engage because they think its important

(Not me...im fucking useless with the engaging)

Dictionaries are not proscriptive. They measure the use of language and change definitions when they change. Lexicographers do tend to be very conservative and watch how things pan out before changing or adding to the definitions of existing words, so definitions lag behind. New words are added more proactively.

For example, alongside "adult human female" we have "a female attendant to a lady of rank" "a female person who cleans house, cooks, etc.; housekeeper: " You don't have to use woman in these ways or agree that's how it should be used, but others will. In a way it's a cultural competition between memes. The word woman is more and more being used inclusively.

Because I think it might help, the definition of cisgender:

Cisgender: Denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender corresponds with their birth sex.

So, if your sense of personal identity correspends to your birth sex, you are cisgender. If you don't like the idea of gender (or conflate it with gender expression), then think of it as personal identity alone.

Moonkissedlegs

Do you think your sexuality is determined by anything obvious about your biology? If not, you acknowledge that there it's possible to have a protected, real characteristic which is denoted a "feeling." The same applies to gender identity. The fact it is not visible does not mean it's not real. If a celibate gay person tells you they are gay, do you think that's a real thing, or because you can't "see it" that it's made up?

@Violinist6 you are delusional if you think TRAs will be reading this and thinking oh isn't she lovely, maybe MN is a great place after all.

They'll be writing about you on Twitter, how you're cis scum and how you shouldn't be allowed a voice.

If someone has been through gender realignment surgery of course they should be and rightly are recognised as a woman. If some bloke just fancies being a woman and wants to scream about how no one has the right to tell him he isn't then I'm sorry but I will not be a handmaiden to that man and I'm actually quite disgusted by anyone who will.

If you have a penis you aren't a woman, and no woman should be forced to share their intimate spaces with you or have sex with you. If you don't understand why then you don't understand what it is to be a woman and never will. If you splash all over Twitter about how TERFs should suck your lady dick then you really are mentally ill and should seek help.

They'll be writing about you on Twitter, how you're cis scum and how you shouldn't be allowed a voice.

Do keep me posted when that happens, eh? I don’t use Twitter.

MIdgebabe Surely if someone tells you they find something offensive, you try to avoid it? Or is that just my female socialisation again?

Generally speaking I would agree. But most of the time there is usually an easy alternative word or expression that costs you nothing to switch to. Not here it seems. You would literally have to write "Not A not B not C not D..."

Perhaps if someone could suggest a quick alternative to refer to the people who ordinarily would have been designated as cis.

Perhaps if someone could suggest a quick alternative to refer to the people who ordinarily would have been designated as cis.

Hmmm....let me think....a quick alternative, you say? How about female / woman? No prefixes or adjectives needed. Clear, simple and true.

Are some people on this thread saying...... correct me if I’m wrong, I’m sure someone will! .....

So you’re born with a penis. This doesn’t feel wrong to you. Your sex = man. Your gender identity is man. Purely because you don’t feel that you should be a woman with a vagina etc. So you’re a cis man.

You’re born with a penis. Your sex = man. You feel you should have a vagina. Your gender identity is woman. So You’re a trans woman.

Your gender expression for both of the above might be anything from yay pink tutus to football loving with short hair.

All this would be fine to me. We’re taking about gender dysphoria here yes?

What I don’t understand is how you’re fine with your penis. But somehow you’re still a woman (gender identity and/or sex wise). No one has ever adequately explained this feeling of being a woman. It’s this concept that is often insulting to women I think.

Hmmm....let me think....a quick alternative, you say? How about female / woman? No prefixes or adjectives needed. Clear, simple and true.

If we have to have a prefix I'd settle for real. Or actual.

As said on s previous thread

If only men would listen!

Not cis never cis ever cis just a woman.

Don’t be scared we don’t normally bite but if you push us you will get the back lash

Perhaps if someone could suggest a quick alternative to refer to the people who ordinarily would have been designated as cis.

I’m very happy being called a woman

Perhaps if someone could suggest a quick alternative to refer to the people who ordinarily would have been designated as cis

Another thing i dont get

This cis business is new...go back 5 years and no one was using it....it may have existed but not in 99% of places

Ive been a girl and woman for nearly 49 years, ive not changed...but now its cis woman and people are confused about why i may not be too keen on the change

Didn't rtft so this may have been mentioned already but here's how I see it. I'm not transphobic at all, I think it must be very tough to wrestle with the feeling that you're in the wrong body. If any of my friends came out as trans, I would support them 100%. Above all I would never misgender them. If a trans woman wants to be called she/her who am I to say different?

But it goes both ways. I'm not "cis", I'm a woman. A large part of my identity is tied up with the term woman. This isn't true for everyone but it is for me. Call me a woman and I'll call you whatever you choose, it's our respective right. Call me cis and I'm going to feel like you're trying to suppress my "woman-ness", much as you would if you're a trans woman and I called you "he"

If people are happy/unhappy with their sex why on earth are they arguing that current language must be changed to broadcast it. Just think of a word for it - let's say 'uncis'

A man can say "I'm a man" and if he wants people to know he can add I'm 'uncis'

We don't have special titles or prefixes for gay people, black people or for people with a disability either. Partly because being gay, black or disabled is not ALL you are and because for most purposes no one else cares.

"Do you have the correct time?"
"it's 10.15am and I'm gay" is not something you will ever hear.

The main function of "cis" is to create a rhetorical fiction that there are two equal but different groups within the category "woman". Hence ciswomen and transwomen. But the truth is that transwomen dont belong in the category at all. They are not women. They're men.