To wonder what the point of cisgender is?

[Squatternutbosh]

I’ve just read an article where cisgender is described as “someone who identifies as the sex they were assigned at birth”. Is this an actual thing? Why is this even given a label? Surely if you were born male or female and you live as a male or female then this is what you “identify” as. (If you even feel the need to identify as anything, rather than just living your life as you).

It seems like everything must be given a label these days. The worlds gone fucking mad.

@DadJoke

I find your number of legs analogy interesting.

Because if you felt you should have three legs instead of two, medical advice wouldn’t be to indulge that and graft a leg onto you? If you felt you should only have one, you wouldn’t be granted an ‘amputation affirmation surgery’ would you? Equally, no one says that those people with that type of dysphoria disproves the fact that human beings are bipedal mammals. It is recognised that these are outliers with mental heath problems.

Where does 'cis or trans' leave gender non conforming people?

I've very recently decided I'm a gender non-conforming woman. Or a gender non-binary woman.

I've also decided to identify everyone around me as a gender non-conforming insert identifiable biological sex here unless they would like to tell me different.

Hmmm....let me think....a quick alternative, you say? How about female / woman? No prefixes or adjectives needed. Clear, simple and true.

That is not an alternative though is it? Female on its own will capture trans men, non gender binary females and etc etc.

How do you quickly refer to just the "cis" females but without using that term?

What I don’t understand is how you’re fine with your penis. But somehow you’re still a woman (gender identity and/or sex wise). No one has ever adequately explained this feeling of being a woman. It’s this concept that is often insulting to women I think

Yes, transexuals suffer from dysphoria and are desperate to change their bodies.
Yet now we have straight, adult males who say they have no dysphoria, happy with their fully working dicks and claim to be women/lesbians. How does that work then?

These are the people are pushing for kids to take drugs with huge health side effects, stopping them from maturing mentally as well as sexually and leaving them infertile before having bits cut off.

One rule for one....

Just catching up and not read to the end yet so apologies if this has been said, but in repsonse to this by wiggywalsh yesterday

*Also worth repeating: they've had self ID in Ireland for a couple of years.

How many cases of men dressing up as women so they can access women's spaces and assault women have there been?*

This goes to the fact that isnce the GRA in particular, *we no longer accurately record crime stats by natal sex as well as gender in the UK.

If Irish police allow the self ID of gender in their stats as we do here (and I imagine the that is the point of th the slefID law) then any crimes or allegations commtoted by transwomen or males IDing as women will be recorded as crimes by women against women.

Same goes for news reporting; the crime would be reported as woman against women, and only if there was some other factor such as a previous offence as the other gender and it could be reported without accusations of deadnaming etc, could it be revealed that the offence was committed by a person who was trans rather than a natal woman.

So actually, we very likely would not know and to me this is irresponsible and in fact negligent with regard to safegaurding.

To me this is yet another problem with the laws as they stand, which could get worse under new proposals. There is a level of privacy, no secrecy granted to trans people which, although I can understand wanting at a personal level for privacy, is way over and above anything given to anyone else - even those accused of rape or murder for example.

I find this problematic and a disproportionate measure which is not democratic and harms equality and skews statisitcs.

The state has a need to know to that we can actually tell what is going on and so that public bodies in particular can fulfill their legal obligations under the PublicSector Equality Duty.

And no, don't assume I am cisgender or cis anything. It is offensive.

DianaPrincessOfThemyscira

What I am after is an acknowledgement that this is an example of a real, experienced feeling rooted in biology, that you can't point a finger at.

The analogy breaks down for other purposes - the issue of whether gender dysphoria is mental health problem is unrelated to this particular argument.

Empress I'm with you on 'real' I'm a real woman.

Also what's with this gender assigned at birth. No one was assigned a gender only a sex!!!

@Dad joke.

I know my sex I know my sexuality. Both are factors that have real world measurable properties.

I don't know my gender identity and I can see no way of measuring it.

I can think of no measurement that I can make that might offer a reflection of gender identity

I can think of no mesusreable causal outcome of a gender identity

Ergo, gender identity does not exists either as a real world physical thing, or as a "latent" concept

so you want trans, cis, non binary...and what about me? What term will you give me given I have stated I have no gender identity? You have an incomplete classification

And it's still rude

JAPAB You would use woman for adult human female or girl for child human female.

As I said before, if gender is in our heads then why do you need to refer to someone as cis at all? Coz you can’t see gender, right?

@DadJoke.

*What I am after is an acknowledgement that this is an example of a real, experienced feeling rooted in biology, that you can't point a finger at.

The analogy breaks down for other purposes - the issue of whether gender dysphoria is mental health problem is unrelated to this particular argument.*

Why do I or anyone need to acknowledge this? There is nothing to suggest there is a biological reality and everything to suggest it is mental. Of course it’s related.

MIdgebabe if you truly have no inner sense or feeling of yourself as being a man or woman, do not consider yourself to be either, then there are terms to cover that. Agender might be one. No doubt there are others. There are a lot of them.

DianaPrincessOfThemyscira, JAPAB You would use woman for adult human female or girl for child human female.

If I wanted to refer to all such people, yes. But what about the subset of them who are not...not...not...

As I said before, if gender is in our heads then why do you need to refer to someone as cis at all? Coz you can’t see gender, right?

Not sure I understand. Why do people need to refer to someone's sexuality or nationality when you cannot see these? Sometimes it just comes up.

SO assuming there are loads of gender descriptions.. I have seen somewhere that over 70 different gender identities have been named!

When and where does it matter?

I can see when and where sex matter, ditto sexuality. But the mysterious gender description? Under what circumstance might knowing this matter? Why do we feel the need to classify people in this way. How have I managed to live my life without it impacting on me at all!?

So far all I can think of are for things like marketing. If we classify people we can sell things easier to them. Especially if we encourage them to fit a box and identify into it. Manipulation.

So if gender identity exists, then it is as a tool for marketing and capitalist control. Think I will give that a miss thank you.

But the truth is that transwomen dont belong in the category at all. They are not women. They're men.

Well put. Transwomen are not women.

Why do we feel the need to classify people in this way. How have I managed to live my life without it impacting on me at all!?

Well, if it has never impacted you, and you don't really 'get it', maybe just don't get bothered over it?
Some people are keen to define what group they belong to (many on here a v keen to make little exclusive groups with precise entry requirements, and call themselves things like 'real women', for example).

I tend to agree with you in part, that it doesn't affect me, and I don't feel a need to assign myself to a group, I'm happy just being me.

But I definitely respect the right of others to try to work out how the feel, and to have a sense of belonging to something, if they find it helpful AND don't intend want to put down others who they feel are outside their group.

But what about the subset of them who are not...not...not...

“Cis” women are not the subset who are not...not...not - you have it completely backwards and I find this insulting.

I am a woman. I am female.

I am not not Trans
I am not not a man
I am not not anything.

I am a woman

I am not transphobic to want to be called a woman. It is what I am.

I am not transphobic to feel offended at being called a cis woman.

I respect others wanting to have their identity recognised. I do not respect my identity being altered or taken from me.

I am a woman.

Anyone who thinks “cis” is a neutral prefix needs to read why has happened to Alison Moyet on Twitter, when she rejected the term,

How on earth can saying you belong to the sex class women, alongside over half of all adults be described as 'making little exclusive groups with precise entry requirements'. Creating lots of new words for new gender groups is a part of genderist ideology not feminism, gener critical thinking or indeed mainstream thinking at all. Like much of the rhetoric coming from those advocating trans ideology it makes very little sense. Humans come in two sexes and infinite personalities.

MIdgebabe if you truly have no inner sense or feeling of yourself as being a man or woman, do not consider yourself to be either, then there are terms to cover that. Agender might be one. No doubt there are others.

But she doesn't need any of them does she? She is a woman.
Shit when I was 9 I wanted to be Indiana Jones. Or Han Solo. Please invent a special category for a heterosexual girl who really identifies with the characters played by Harrison Ford.
I demand it as my right.
I'll wait.

Cisgender is another stick to beat females with. It’s designed to align us with our oppression and it will be a cold day in Hell before I refer to myself as such. I am a woman because of my sex, not cis, not any other gender descriptor. Just an adult human female = woman

if you truly have no inner sense or feeling of yourself as being a man or woman, do not consider yourself to be either, then there are terms to cover that. Agender might be one. No doubt there are others. There are a lot of them.

I have no inner sense of being male or female, I have no gender identity whatsoever. I consider myself a gender atheist.

The fact I’m currently bleeding out of my vagina due to my monthly cycle tells me my sex is female.

What does an inner sense of being a woman feel like anyway? How can I tell if I have one? Seems to me it's like faith, one of those things that if you have it can be incredibly important to you and if you don't it's incomprehensible. Fine to tell people that it's the cornerstone of your life but unreasonable to demand that everyone else has it too.

MIdgebabe if you truly have no inner sense or feeling of yourself as being a man or woman, do not consider yourself to be either, then there are terms to cover that. Agender might be one. No doubt there are others. There are a lot of them.

What a load of navel gazing old BOLLOCKS.

I am happy if other people want to have a gender identity - if t makes them happy and doesn't affect me that is great.

However when it does affect me...when people with a different sex say they are entitled to things associated with my sex because of their gender identity then NO.

We have just apparently agreed in this conversation sex is different to gender identity. I also know personally that violence against women is due to sex not gender identity...or only women with a particular gender identity would have experienced it . So just because you claim a particular gender identity does not give you sex based rights. SO changing rooms and women's shelters and hospital wards are single sex and gender identity is irrelevent.

Similarly, if drugs are being tested, or saftey belts, again that is a sex issue not gender.

Which takes us back to... what is gender identity for? What benefit does it provide?