To wonder what the point of cisgender is?

[Squatternutbosh]

I’ve just read an article where cisgender is described as “someone who identifies as the sex they were assigned at birth”. Is this an actual thing? Why is this even given a label? Surely if you were born male or female and you live as a male or female then this is what you “identify” as. (If you even feel the need to identify as anything, rather than just living your life as you).

It seems like everything must be given a label these days. The worlds gone fucking mad.

@Belindabauer

You've conflated gender expression (what you wear and what you do) with gender identity. As you rightly say, gender expression is cultural and changes, gender identity (like sex and sexuality) doesn't.

So the main battleground in this war appears to be intersectional feminists and transgender people plus their liberal allies on one side, and various radical feminists and conservatives on the other

That's rich. There are plenty of homophobic regressives ostensibly on the trans side. A sterilised, mentally ill child is better than a homosexual child, right?

You're all zoomers.

Anyway. It's been real. Buh bye!

@Rufustheyawningreindeer Come at me!

ijustwannadance Sexuality is an attraction to a particular gender or sex. It's not like old young or disabled. You can be gay and celibate

You clearly misunderstood my post. A gay women is still a woman. A young women is still a woman. A gay, celibate woman is still a woman. All biological women regardless of any other factor.
Trans women are not women.

Also being gay means you are attracted to the same SEX. Not gender.
Therefore someone with a penis wanting to have sex with someone with a vagina cannot be a bloody lesbian however they 'identify'.

Can you also please stop using the @. I'm on the thread. I don't need a load of emails.

What’s zoomed? Oh has school finished.

Legally, even if someone have a GRC they can still be denied access to sex separated spaces. It's part of the equality act.

Given that most people today with a GRC tend to have a recognised mental condition, and typically have hormone or surgical modifications, often the starting point is allow access unless a problem arises. But they can still legally be refused access.

Oddly enough, people with a GRC today are also given psychological support that means that they understand and accept/tolerate that.

its been real

as my kids would say lol

Plus lots and lots of MRAs and assorted misogynists, Dixie. They love a chance to injure or slur women. And then there's the transvestites and other fetishists who are using child transition to obscure their own murky motives.

Intersectional feminism does not, however fondly some hope, mean feminism which centres penis bearers. HTH.

Whats a zoomer?

dad you are quite safe...i tend to just babble

@DixieFlatline That's rich. There are plenty of homophobic regressives ostensibly on the trans side. A sterilised, mentally ill child is better than a homosexual child, right?

Oh, dear God, you are right - I'm sorry I didn't include them. These are people conflate gender expression and sexualty with gender identity. I am not sure of the extent of it on the basis of the vanishingly small number of transgender people, I don't imagine it's huge number, but suggesting to a male child that because they like wearing dresses or are attracted to boys makes them a girl is poisonous. Gender identity, like sexuality, is something you have to come to understand yourself, and you shouldn't be pressurised either way.

My nephew loves dressing up as a princess, in a way that would have been totally unacceptable not so long ago, but that's irrelevant to his gender identity. He knows he is a boy.

Thinking out loud here. There was that women who was sentenced for using a strap on pretending to be a man with a straight women because the women who was penetrated consented to sex with a man not a women cannot remember the exact charge though. How does this work with trans non trans though? Say you don’t know the person is trans sleep with them and later find out as in a few places I’ve read they don’t feel they should tell people they used to be John or Tracy.

You're all zoomers.
Whats a zoomer?

ijustwannadance My point was that just because a characteristic does not have a visible manifestation, does not mean that it's not real. You can be gay and not act on it, and no one will doubt your feelings. Likewise gender identity is real, even though you can't point at it.

I made no reference to whether sexuality was directed at gender or sex. I do know that I would be disappointed if I was on a date and the person turned out not to have a vulva, even if that means I am transphobic, and that no one should ever be pressured into having sex with someone who has genitals they don't find attractive.

(sorry, I didn't know the "@" did that)

Gender identity is real but not universally felt. Like religion. Not everyone has one.

People who are so concerned with the idea that a transwoman shouldn’t be allowed in typically ciswomen-only spaces, how far does that belief go? If a transwoman’s penis isn’t fully functioning, for example if she is impotent and incapable of an erection, are you fine with that?

This is a genuine question btw to anyone who feels that way or has used the ‘I don’t want someone with a fully functioning penis in this space’, not just the PP who made that argument!

Gender identity is real but not universally felt. Like religion. Not everyone has one.

The analogy with religion is a good one actually.

I have a friend who is fairly staunchly Christian, believes in God, after life, the whole thing. She prays, sometimes says she prays for me, she goes to church every Sunday, she reads and believes bits of the Bible.

I don't believe any of it I think it's bullshit. I don't really understand how she can believe it. She might even be quite upset if she knew how ridiculous I thought it was. But I don't say that to her. I let her get on with her life and she let's me get on with mine. Because what she does has no bearing on me.

However, if she suddenly started telling me that I had to believe in God, forced me to start praying, gave me mantras that I had to repeat, made me go to church, and expected me to to change my life to fit her beliefs, then very quickly I would say something. I might start by saying that she has no right to make me redefine who I am to fit her beliefs.

But if she persisted, then it probably wouldn't take me very long to lose it with her and shout at her 'why the fuck do you believe in something so completely and utterly ludicrous and untrue? I have been humouring you because you weren't hurting me, but enough is enough, I don't believe this bollocks and you have no right to make me bend to your beliefs. RELIGION IS BULLSHIT, SORRY IF THAT HURTS YOUR FEELINGS BUT I DON'T CARE. '

You should not use the term cis woman to refer to all women (or to all people who were born as women and still call themselves women) ..it's an official mumsnet rule..if this was on feminist I would report.

I understand the rule is because definition of cis is someone whose gender identity matches their sex and is therefor implying that all women have a gender identity. Also it is often used as an insult.

To answer your question, I don't think there is any consensus.

ideally a safe space for transpeople that was separate from biological women would be my preference. Proper unisex facility for example.

Without that, I would treat those with surgery/hormonal castration differently to lesbian identifying men in dresses.

I can understand however people who take a stronger line who are worried that if it becomes expected that no one would challenge anyone using single sex facilities for fear of offending a transperson then those facilities become meaningless. Any man could wander in.

lesbian identifying men in dresses.

WTAF.

So a man that likes to fuck woman while he wears a dress?

I don't get half of this shit.

I think the "fully functioning penis" thing is kind of a red herring as, unless they wapp it out, you couldn't know either way.
For me, I don't personally mind if someone who is obviously of the male sex but dressed in women's clothes goes to change in the womens changing room, but I do want the right to object if he is behaving in odd ways. And I want other women who do mind to feel they can object.
Which is how it has always been. Most of us will have at times shared facilities with trans identifying people and it was a fairly rare occurrence.
The difference now is that there is a growing group of frankly narcissistic people who will invade these places to make a point (see the man who stropped in Top Shop and they were so scared of being considered bigoted they changed their policy! )
I want all girls and women to feel they have the right to say "hang on I'm not feeling safe with this man in my space and for them to be allowed to speak up and be heard.
None of this is about which kind of trans the man is. Just that female spaces need to be protected. It's honestly not about men. Or transwomen. Or cross dressers. Or businessmen who are Sharon on Tuesdays. It's about protecting girls (female children) and women ( female adults).

In case it has not been posted elsewhere on this thread

People who are so concerned with the idea that a transwoman shouldn’t be allowed in typically ciswomen-only spaces, how far does that belief go? If a transwoman’s penis isn’t fully functioning, for example if she is impotent and incapable of an erection, are you fine with that?

Well, it's almost moot really, because most transwomen have fully functioning penises. But again, if we are asking women to put qualifiers on their beliefs about at what point a transwoman truly becomes a woman, then let's put that on the men as well?

Have you asked any straight men at what point in a trans woman's transition they would be willing to accept them an 'actual' woman, and have a sexual relationship with them? What about if they couldn't get an erection, do you think that men would take that as the marker at which they have become an actual woman?

If we want 'transwomen are women' to be a statement of universal, immutable fact, then surely we have to have some parameters agreed on by both men and women, which mark out the point at which a transwoman becomes an actual woman?

I would like to say at this point that I support third spaces for trans people and for trans people to have extra rights if necessary to ensure that they are protected (from men, let's face it) in public spaces.

I don't support just suggesting that women shove over and give up their rights to accommodate men who feel more comfortable presenting as women.