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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder what the point of cisgender is?

502 replies

Squatternutbosh · 04/07/2018 20:36

I’ve just read an article where cisgender is described as “someone who identifies as the sex they were assigned at birth”. Is this an actual thing? Why is this even given a label? Surely if you were born male or female and you live as a male or female then this is what you “identify” as. (If you even feel the need to identify as anything, rather than just living your life as you).

It seems like everything must be given a label these days. The worlds gone fucking mad.

OP posts:
Mummyschnauzer · 05/07/2018 17:19

There isn’t a point.

DadJoke · 05/07/2018 17:21

Moonkissedlegs gender identity is not like relgion. A religion is a set of beliefs about the outside world, and gender identity, like sexuality, is a lived experience. If you have the luxury of your body and mind matching, then your gender identity matches your sex, and it's no more apparent than water to a fish.

I think a lot of the objections come from conflating gender-based oppression and gender expression with gender identity. Of course you don't want to be forced to comply with societal roles associated with a particular gender identity.

chillpizza · 05/07/2018 17:24

I think not having a penis is a pretty big part of being a women. Apart from the tiny tiny percentage of people born with both genitals women do not have penises just as men do not have a vulva.

I’m sexually attracted to penis owners not vulva owners, I would not have a relationship with someone with a vulva trans or not.

Middleoftheroad · 05/07/2018 17:24

ciswomen-only spaces Confused

I imagine the term cis was first used by a teenage boy who'd watched one too many YouTube vlogs.

Then it became adopted as acceptable and a term MN is happy to not add to its growing list of offensive terms.

LyndseyKola · 05/07/2018 17:25

The error you’re making with that argument is that absolutely none of us owes anyone our sexual or romantic interest, and to imply that is pretty concerning.

You, and I, get to choose who we sleep with, with any qualifiers we like. We don’t owe anyone the application of an equal opportunities policy to our bedrooms or our bodies.

We do owe it to others to be able to exist in a society where we do come across plenty of other people every day, and to be able to accept, respect and rub along with others.

Fuckwithnosensesauce · 05/07/2018 17:28

I really don’t know what is going on. Exactly what percentage of the population gives even one fuck about the trans world? Why are new terms being invented not to offend such a small number of people?

I don’t care what people call themselves, or how they live their lives. I would fight for their right to have the opportunity to express themselves how they wish, but really, do I need a new way of describing being a woman because their feelings might be upset? Really?

Let’s find something more worthy to be outraged by like poverty, or mass rape, or war or corruption or child abuse or DV or ....

Mummyschnauzer · 05/07/2018 17:29

Right can someone actually explain to me what the frequently trotted out line of sex is biological gender is socially constructed actually means? Does it mean that people who like to do typically female things, wear dresses, do make up etcare women tomboys are actually men? What are people actually talking about when they identify as a man, are the identifying with a preconceived notion of what a man is? I genuinely don’t understand

Fuckwithnosensesauce · 05/07/2018 17:31

And...I support third places for trans people...but I respectively suggest they are not too big.

TeenTimesTwo · 05/07/2018 17:33

I don't think we need 'cis-woman' only spaces.

We need single sex spaces. If someone with a female body identifies as a Clingon or a Timelord that is fine, they are still welcome in single sex spaces.

If a girl who 'identifies as a boy' wants to be in girl guides they should be permitted, including sharing tents. But I wouldn't want a 'boy who identifies as a girl' sharing a tent with my teen DD.

A pre-op man identifying as a woman can choose not to go into male only spaces, but they shouldn't demand access to female only spaces. There should be a third space.

speakout · 05/07/2018 17:38

Mummyschnauzer yes.

Most trans women tend to look ultra "feminine", this is the bit that I find odd. While they are teetering around in high heels and pencil skirts, most biological women are going about their lives dressed in jeans and a t shirt.
Why do so many trans women want to play such a caricature of a woman? Unless of course all that sexy clothing helps them get their rocks off.

I have no problem with men in dresses- but lets call it as is.

If a female trans wants to look like a stereotypical woman he would be wearing jeans and sneakers.

DadJoke · 05/07/2018 17:41

teentimestwo Just to be clear, you'd like to share your single sex space with this person?
Transman

Moonkissedlegs · 05/07/2018 17:44

The error you’re making with that argument is that absolutely none of us owes anyone our sexual or romantic interest, and to imply that is pretty concerning

No, I absolutely agree with you. Straight men have absolutely no obligation to have a sexual interest in transwomen. Because transwomen are not women.

Now people like this guy will tell you that the fact that they have no interest in a sexual relationship with any transwoman and would rule out transwomen for 'relationship purposes', has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that transwomen are actually men. Whilst also telling women that they must accept transwomen in their female only spaces.

I guess you have to decide what you believe.

To wonder what the point of cisgender is?
LyndseyKola · 05/07/2018 17:49

Straight men have absolutely no obligation to have a sexual interest in transwomen. Because transwomen are not women.

It’s more that straight men (and gay and bi men and women) have absolutely no obligation to be sexually interested in anyone, because that’s not how sexual interest works. It’s not necessary to relate it to how someone’s genitalia or body is configurated. It’s a universal rule across the board.

Me not being interested in a transman who has a vagina doesn’t mean I don’t believe they’re men. It just means I’m not sexually attracted to that person. Like I might be not attracted to anyone, male/female cis/trans alike.

TeenTimesTwo · 05/07/2018 17:50

Dad Maybe not.

RoseWhiteTips · 05/07/2018 17:54

OP:
It is absolutely barking mad and I shall treat it with the contempt it deserves.

Moonkissedlegs · 05/07/2018 17:57

Me not being interested in a transman who has a vagina doesn’t mean I don’t believe they’re men. It just means I’m not sexually attracted to that person.

Owen Jones was asked if he would give cunninglingus to a trans man with a vagina. Because if trans men are men, and he is gay, then would he want to do that. He said that that question 'erased him as a gay man'. He sees himself as gay, that is his sexuality, and felt that someone asking him that question was erasing that sexuality. They weren't asking about a specific trans man, and whether he was specifically attracted to that particular trans man, they were asking the question generally.

Do you not believe in sexuality as a concept? Being attracted to someone of the same or opposite sex?

DianaPrincessOfThemyscira · 05/07/2018 17:57

So let me get this straight in my own head.

I am a cis woman because someone has decided that woman is not sufficient to describe an adult human female.

I have to be this because despite me saying I don’t ‘feel’ like a woman or have a gender identity, other people have decided I do.

I need to be mindful that using the wrong pronouns, or currently en vogue word might upset someone, but that someone is allowed to literally choose and add a prefix to woman to make themselves feel better.

I’m not allowed to object to this renaming because as a cis woman I have more privilege over a trans woman. It was a privilege to have to sit out swimming at age 11 due to my period, it was a privilege to be sexualised and called a slut from age 11 because I started developing, it’s a privilege to be judged for having hair on my legs or not wearing make up, it was a privilege to be raped.

I have to budge up and make room for those trans women in the sex segregated spaces, sports, shortlists, and accept it because it is not far to expect those trans women to carve out their own space, as my sisters in history had to do so I could have the right to work, the right to own property, the right not to be raped by my own husband.

And now, I have to accept that as they added cis to woman, I have to accept a vagina is now a front hole, trans women are actually female, breast implants are available to trans women but not cis women, HRT forever is available for trans women but not cis women.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

JAPAB · 05/07/2018 17:59

OP, sometimes there needss to be a quick way to distinguish "normal" people (for want of a better way of putting it) from those who do things differently.

Cis is certainly a lot quicker and less likely to give you RSI than having to write out "people who are not trans/non gender binary/gender fluid/bi-gender..." and all the other "non-normal" ways peiple can be.

MsSensibleWay · 05/07/2018 18:01

"A unicorn looks like a horse and has a horn. 'Unicorn' is a descriptor for something physical, like sex is."

Woman is a descriptor for something physical, woman is a descriptor for an adult human female, a human who is biologically female. How does unicorn get to be a descriptor for a physical state but man and woman don't?

You can't just change the meaning of a word and then get all upset when lots of people disagree with you.

Moonkissedlegs · 05/07/2018 18:01

I should add for clarity that I know that straight men don't have an obligation to be attracted to women, it's just that, by definition of being straight, then tend to be Smile

Alanamackree · 05/07/2018 18:04

Last to the party as usual but here’s my two cents worth:

Somewhere along the way the terms normal and normative got conflated. When you analyze a group statistically, and there’s a majority type against which you compare the outliers, that majority is “normative”, or norm for short. Normal doesn’t come into it. The outliers are not abnormal. They’re non normative in the context of the comparison.

However psychology and social science borrowed heavily from the hard sciences and medicine in the 1950’s (for various reasons) and we’re left with a deeply rooted impression that cultural, social and psychological can be understood within a medical model.

When you add in the pressures of the pharmaceutical industry and the vast budgets behind campaigns to convince us that pills can cure everything (who here doesn’t think anti-d’s cure depression?) you end up with a dangerous mindset where:

Anyone different from the stereotypical is abnormal/sick.

This is the thinking that sends people to conversion camps. But it’s the exact same piece of thinking that drives people to fix their bodies, through plastic surgery, drugs, alcohol, corsets, implants, etc, etc, etc.

And the vast majority of the so called majority are much more diverse than anyone can admit, either for fear of ridicule/ being found out/ not fitting in/ drawing attention. Recently there’s a fear of appropriating other identities, or being disrespectful to minorities by “centering” by drawing parallels to our own experiences.

My hope was that men would do what women have done since the 40s, which is push the boundaries of what is acceptable for women to do/say/wear/be.

By comparison to women, men are massively restricted despite their massive privilege. The space allotted to “real men” is very narrow. I remember gay men carrying signs saying “I am a man” and it being a paradigm-shifting message because it was a society-wide trope (and comedy gold) that gay men were not real men.

Every insult directed at men who don’t fit the narrow mould, are insults to women- pussy, sissy, douche, etc. even bastard is just a reference to his mother’s marital status.

It’s long over due that we tackle the fortresses of masculinity, and tear down the walls. And even for those who do fit the mould, it’s toxic, psychologically draining and damaging. So much that is wrong with our society could be righted if we just could allow all men to be men.
Like football? Yes you’re a man
Don’t like football? Yes you’re a man
Shoot em up soldier? Definitely a man,
Pacifist? Definitely a man
Wear trousers? A Robe? A cassock? Shorts? A dress? still a man.
Long hair, short hair, no hair. Still a man
Gay, straight, not bothered? Still a man.

If just the fact of being born with a penis entitled the bearer to full, unequivocal and unconditional membership of the title “man” with no onus to act a certain way, or pretend, or shut down parts of yourself, there would be no homophobia and no transphobia. There wouldn’t need to be.

If the boundaries of MAN stretched to accommodate every type of man, and the definition of WOMAN stretched to accommodate every type of woman, then there would be a massive area of overlap where it would be quite difficult to be certain whether an individual was male or female without checking their pants!

And then it wouldn’t matter for most purposes because we’d be working from a point of respecting individuals instead of stereotypes.

And this could be the moment. We could do it. The world is ripe for change. There are amazing voices coming to the fore. But instead of dismantling the prison bars of toxic masculinity, those who could now make the most amazing differences to the world are set on a road that could destroy all that has been hard won. It’s incredibly frustrating.

My understanding of “cis” is that by re-defining the normative group in the context of the non-normative groups, it makes it difficult to “other” people in the way we always have. It disrupts the implications of normal vs abnormal.

We need to do this. And not just for sex preferences- it’s vital for special needs too as other posters have said.

As long as we keep mistaking the normative for “normal” and trying to conform to stereotypes instead of being free to be ourselves, we are damaging lives.

The thing is that when people react to the word “cis” with wtf and challenge the “ladybrain” concept and say that there’s no one way to be a woman, then they’re achieving what the word is trying to do. They’re saying that human experience is too diverse and individual for labels.

Feminists, and indeed every woman just living her life her own way, have been fighting for the space to be who and what we are. We’ve been fighting for trans rights. We should be on the same side.

The fact that we’re not suggests to me that the trans movement is being manipulated by different motivations than the ones they claim. I am entirely in favor of people being free to be their best selves. But something isn’t right about this. Because if you project what’s currently happening to it’s logical conclusion, the rights of everyone who isn’t a boba fide alpha male will be destroyed.

Alanamackree · 05/07/2018 18:13

*bona fide
I have no idea what a boba fide male would look like Hmm

DianaPrincessOfThemyscira · 05/07/2018 18:22

So JAPAB, if I described people as men or women you would have no idea what I was talking about without cis as a prefix?

ijustwannadance · 05/07/2018 18:27

Boba fide male?Grin

To wonder what the point of cisgender is?
LyndseyKola · 05/07/2018 18:51

So JAPAB, if I described people as men or women you would have no idea what I was talking about without cis as a prefix?

This depends on your social circle surely?

If you don’t know any trans people or are in a circle that isn’t aware of trans issues, then it’s pretty normal to assume someone saying ‘I met a man last week’ means a cis man, as if they were a trans guy and that’s out of the ordinary in your circle it’d probably be remarked upon.

If trans issues are a topic of discussion/interest in your circle and/or you have friends who are trans then who knows? Some people might purposefully exclude any prefix to show their belief that trans and cis men are men. Someone else might find the person’s gender to be relevant so specify either way.

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