To leave the child in bed...

[Singlebutmarried]

....and be late for school

She’s hardly slept this past week and she’s like a little zombie by about 4pm.

I'd also like to add, this doesn't need to be reserved for high achievers. Low achievers get a lot of pressure put on them too!

Higher attainment is something schools care about, parents should concern themselves less with it. An intelligent child is going to do well regardless of whether they get a B or an A, I'd even argue a child who fails their GCSEs can still achieve in other ways.*

Of course a child can achieve in other ways (as can an adult) but to argue that academic achievement isn't a parental concern seems perverse to me. My child's life chances are directly related to how well she does at school. Her mental health comes first, of course, but I am never going to imagine her achievement is her teachers' problem and not mine. She is my child - everything that affects her is my problem.

Hum2 thank you.

I care about all aspects of raising kids into becoming happy adults.
Self esteem, social and emotional health are paramount too.
I would be happy if I raised a free thinking individual who has agency, respect for themselves and others.

@speakout I completely agree. Life is not just about what you can do on paper or how much money you can earn.

@Pengggwn

Of course a child can achieve in other ways (as can an adult) but to argue that academic achievement isn't a parental concern seems perverse to me.

I didn't.

I said HIGHER attainment is a schools concern. They want the highest grades across the board from their pupils. On an individual basis, a child that gets a C but could have attained a B isn't going to alter their life path dramatically, particularly if their mental health was less compromised.

My child's life chances are directly related to how well she does at school.

Many, many people fail at school and go into be successful entrepreneurs. At 21, an adult can go to University as a 'mature student's and previous schooling becomes irrelevant. My sister, who dropped out of school is a fine example of this, she is now a forensic scientist after going to university later in life.

Her mental health comes first, of course, but I am never going to imagine her achievement is her teachers' problem and not mine. She is my child - everything that affects her is my problem

Agree. As stated, I didn't say it wasn't a parents concern. I stated that pushing the grade boundaries is a school driven goal which is overly picked up on by parents.

Hum2

By "Higher", then, perhaps you meant "highest"? In my view, my child's "higher" attainment means she is not under-achieving, and I very much see it as my concern.

Many, many people fail at school and go into be successful entrepreneurs.

What, so, for every Alan Sugar out there there aren't millions of people struggling with low paid, unrewarding employment, adult illiteracy, poor promotion prospects, no savings, no life or health insurance? Oh, right. I must have that wrong, then.

pen
Point is, not all academic qualifications need to be gained at school.
Every human is different ~ most will find their way... just not by 16!

mulberrymelody

With respect, you sound very naive. Gaining adult qualifications (for example those that is a hard, time-consuming and expensive slog. It is far better to do your best at school to start with, when you have a world of time and help at your disposal. I won't be complacent on my DD's about the advantages conferred by a great education. That would be failing her.

Any duvet days here are taken at the weekend.
Black out blinds make a lot of difference when getting smaller children to bed early but need removing for teens who like the cave feel so never move from their room!

What, so, for every Alan Sugar out there there aren't millions of people struggling

Well he's an extreme example isn't he, I didn't say 'billionares', I said 'entrepeneurs'.

My BIL - skipped school, drank, had under aged parties, did drugs, low achiever. Trained as a painter and decorator and earned more money one year than my husband did as a lecturer.

My neighbour - dropped out of school, joined the army, now a self made multi-million pound property developer training other property developers.

with low paid, unrewarding employment
I know of plenty of these types of people who did well in school....

adult illiteracy, poor promotion prospects, no savings, no life or health insurance

As above, apart from 'adult illiteracy' as I presume that comes from a nber if failings in education and not just from an occasional day off.

Oh, right. I must have that wrong, then.
I think so!

As a practical solution for sleep, blackout blinds and curtains above been useless here. The best solution I found for my DD who doesn't sleep with a crack of light(!) was to purchase some blackout fabric from a haberdashery and use velcro to stick it into the corner of her windows. The velcro had its own adhesive to stick to the UPVC and I sewed the other bits to the fabric. I just pull it down on a morning and fold it up.

Hum2

We all know exceptions to rules.

I think my own personal experience has made me have a similar attitude to Hum2.

I see people all around me who have done well at school then dropped out, some who did badly at school, bummed around for a few years then set up in business and become successful.
I see lots of my own kids peers who have been pushed into University and dropped out.

Life is not linear.

I did well at school, but now run my own small business in a totally unrelated field- not Alan Sugar, but I make twice what I would have done staying in my field.
My OH did badly at school ( posh boarding)and ended up going to University at 32 to do a degree in computing.

My world is full of really interesting types of people who have found life satisfaction by thinking outside the box.

School academic attainment can be important, but implicit in that idea is those who don't attain at school are failures.

Those who succeed in life - however that is defined- are the ones with confidence, the ability to think for themselves, to be in touch with their own creativity, to have an understanding and a handle on their own emotional landscape.

These are the life skills that are not always learned in a school environment.

Really interesting. While I don't agree with having a regular day off, I think I would let my DS know that if he needed a day off to regroup etc he could have it. It's about balance. Not all children are the same

School academic attainment can be important, but implicit in that idea is those who don't attain at school are failures

I am certainly not calling them "failures", but if they fail their GCSEs, or don't do as well as their ability should allow, they will have poorer chances of the things we think of as defining success: university, an interesting career they chose, sound finances, long-term health, etc. These are statistical realities.

Totally reasonable to let your child wake up on her own-and you weren't even late. Here schools broke up 1 week ago (primary) and 3 weeks ago (secondary) it is hot,hot,hot and towards the end they were tired,hot and couldn't focus. My daughter was sick for two days in the last week of term and I didn't force her to go in-what's the point of they are not going to be able to concentrate??

I think we sell children (and especially girls) a lie when we tell them that school grades are the be-all and end-all of existence. I did really exceptionally (and I mean exceptionally) well academically. I collected my extremely shiny gold stars all the way to the top. Has it helped me, now in my 40s, find a rewarding, well-paid career? No. I was encouraged to fit into perfect academic boxes, and not to pursue my own interests, take risks, develop interpersonal skills or given any sense of how wide and interesting the world of work can be. The vast majority of people who I drastically outperformed at school have had much more interesting careers than me. Pengwyyyn's example of sports science at Reading as 'underachieving' compared to economics at Imperial is a classic of this misguided worldview. If you push a child into that mindset, likelihood is they'll take their 2:1 from Imperial and become (for the sake of argument) a miserable and stressed project manager in some minor firm in the home counties, as opposed to a fulfilled head of training and development for the Olympic committee of South Africa (*insert job of choice)

We should absolutely push our kids to work hard and pursue their interests and talents to the best of their ability. And on balance, if you only get 2 Es at gcse, you are certainly going to struggle compared to the person who got a 1st in PPE at Oxford. But there's a vast middle ground in between those two extremes. To imply to a hard-working, academic child that a sure route to success in life involves busting a gut to get their 12 A* at gcse and 1st from Oxbridge is dangerous and ill-informed. I have a sample size of many hundreds of personal acquaintances who did this, and far more than you'd imagine do not have the kind of happy lives and fulfilled careers that you'd expect given their enormous academic prowess. It's imperative that we give kids' emotional and personal development as much space as their academic progress.

Well said, frogsoup!

To be clear, I'm not arguing that this kind of education isn't a help in life. Clearly, on balance, my university peers are by and large doing pretty well for themselves compared to an average sample of the general population. But as for mental health, well, let's just say that the system creates many casualties, and as parents our role is to remember that. The kind of child bound for a Russell group uni is usually the kind of child for whom lessons in self-care and moderation (including duvet days) should absolutely come first if that feels appropriate - they'll likely put themselves under more than enough personal pressure on the academic side.

if the kid is bored out their head by the straightjacket that is our education system, I think they should be allowed the odd day off.

frogsoup

Except that I said nothing about pushing anyone into anything, did I? If my DD wants to go to Reading (and has the grades) she can go. But if she doesn't go to school and try her hardest, that choice might not be open for her. If she gets the grades for Imperial she can still be whatever she wants to be.

frogsoup I completely agree.

I collected my extremely shiny gold stars all the way to the top. Has it helped me, now in my 40s, find a rewarding, well-paid career? No. I was encouraged to fit into perfect academic boxes, and not to pursue my own interests, take risks, develop interpersonal skills or given any sense of how wide and interesting the world of work can be.

And your path sounds like mine.
After jumping through all the hoops I found myself in a shiny job, earning loads, lots of international travel able to afford a nice city apartment.
It was high pressure, harsh corporate world.
Friends were envious, from the outside it must have looked like I had it all.
But inside I was dying. The pressure led to anxiety, I struggled to keep my shit together, but all my education, University had sold me the message that this was what I was meant to be striving towards.

And I was miserable. But to admit that was to have failed. I carried on for 10 years.

That was several decades and a couple of kids ago.
It's only now that I am happy in what I do.
I run a small ( but highly profitable ) business from home- nothing at all to do with my training, degree or previous experience.

I can work the hours I like, and make sure I never work too long that it impinges on the fun things in life.

By business has grown from a place inside me that feels creative, secure, confident, looking after myself physically and emotionally is my key to enjoyment in my work and a good profit.

There are many paths in life- but from a personal perspective I am wary about pushing my kids down an academic route- no matter how able they are- as I am not convinced it always leads to a happy place.

I think what you did was absolutely fine OP. Better to be a bit late, but wide awake and able to concentrate, than on time but tired and moody!

I can sympathise with your DD, I was shattered this morning too and had an extra 45 minutes in bed.

Pengwyyyn the problem is that it isn't a choice. Top grades carry their own straitjacket. Kids are encouraged to aim for the very 'top' if they have the ability, even if Sports science at Reading would make them happier. Sometimes the 'higher' choice makes sense (i'll certainly tell my kids that if they want to be a forensic scientist, then fgs don't do a forensic science degree). But its naive not to be aware of the hidden messages that we inadvertently or otherwise transmit to our kids.

Speakout that really good to hear actually - I'm at a much earlier and more uncertain stage in my journey than you, but hoping to move in your direction! In my 20s i was also well on the road to a stellar career. It was not making me happy. Luckily kids intervened. Now in my early 40s I'm finally starting on the career path that I v much hope will lead me closer to where you are at! Its scary stuff though because I know many people are completely baffled as to why I didn't continue on my original path, since I was clearly so good at it. Going against social (and ingrained personal) expectation has been much harder than I imagined, it's taken me 20 years even to get to this early stage!

pengwwwyn,

But the fact remains, most students who miss a considerable amount of school (>10%) will under-perform.

Here you claim as fact something which is just conjecture.

The only 'fact' here is that on average, students who miss a lot of school achieve less than students who do not miss a lot of school.

That does not allow us to conclude that this lower achievement is underperformance.
It does allow us to conclude that most PA students perform lower than good attendance students. The average being lower does not allow that conclusion.

And in my opinion, the way you phrase your 'fact' implies a causal relation ('will under-perform') which you cannot conclude from the correlation.

As before, you are entitled to your opinion. But presenting as fact, what's more a fact that all parents should be aware of, what is actually your opinion mixed up with some 'but it's common sense' and 'it is my experience' is somewhat insidious.

frogsoup

It's a choice for my kids. If my DD wants to be a tree surgeon, not a surgeon, good for her, no problem. But if she wants to coast, that is a problem. I don't mean she has to flog herself, but there certainly will not be monthly duvet days!