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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to find it hard to talk about race/racism as a black woman without feeling like I'm 'playing the race card'

307 replies

CalliopeSparkles · 01/07/2018 17:44

Sorry if this isn't the most eloquently put post. I read some of the threads on here where people seem to know so much about their subject, it's a little intimidating at times (not a bad thing) so will do my best to get my point across!

I am a mixed race woman. Black and Caucasian. Recently saw a clip of George the Poet during a search:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BkmV6viAfz3/?utmsource=iggsharesheet&igshid=1ilippwo0ufby

Nothing we haven't seen before!

My dad is a runner and went out running one evening. He was pulled over by the police who asked to search him and his bag, saying he looked like a known criminal (he's a professional with a clean record, never broken a law in his life - other than simple ones like breaking the speed limit or not wearing a seatbelt). My brother was strip searched in a shopping mall once after someone thought he was shop lifting (he wasn't), my other brother lives in London, works for the BBC, clean record, and has been stopped and searched 4 times in 2 years, all for no reason (that he could tell anyway). These are all hurtful for me to hear and I know there is something wrong with this. If I've ever entered in to a discussion about it however it often turns in to people becoming defensive, trying to defend why the searches might have been done, and a refusal to see an issue. I believe that most people in this world are good, and kind, and are in no way bigoted or racist, however why is it so hard for some people to simply admit that racism does exist? It's almost like it's taken as a personal insult at times, even though I am as explanatory and unbiased as can be in my discussion.

The last straw for me was the other day when my whole office was in total uproar about a crime stoppers report regarding a white male that was called a 'cracker' by two black men. This is awful racist behaviour, however the anger is never there when it's the every day 'normal' racism we hear about towards ethnic minorities.

AIBU to think that there IS a problem and to be frustrated when trying to discuss it with those who won't engage unless it's their own race that's affected?

OP posts:
ReadySteadyGoooo · 02/07/2018 04:34

@EyeSaidTheFly - YES. When white people deny the experiences of BAME people, that's gaslighting. It's disgusting.
OP, I'm glad you started this thread, I'm sorry the responses have been disappointing. I really hope some of the people who deny the amount of every day racism that exists will get some food for thought from this post.

sashh · 02/07/2018 06:18

In a quote from an old ER episode.

"For white people it is never about race, for black people it is always about race" It's the series that's just been repeated and the one on now.

It's an interesting sub plot. Two young men are taken to ER with gunshot wounds, both are being treated but the white man appears to be getting better and quicker treatment. The black man dies.

The white man is a drug dealer. Dr Greene assumed the black guy was the drug dealer.

In a later episode he says he doesn't know if his assumption was that the man who died was a dealer is racism or experience.

There is racism, a lot. And it has been part of the dominant culture for so long many people don't even notice it.

There has been a lot in the news about the 'Windrush generation', Britain needed workers so 'imported' people, I say imported because these people were seen as a commodity. The system was intended for them to work in lower paid jobs saving the better jobs for white people. Qualifications were ignored so a nurse from Jamaica would have to retrain in the UK as the assumption was that British education and qualifications were better. That attitude doesn't change overnight.

When Stephen Lawrence was murdered the assumption was that he was in a gang or had done something to get himself stabbed, so a racist attack followed by a racist investigation.

As a white person I do not experience racism, I rarely see it, I occasionally hear it and I do call it out. Just because I do not see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

Not talking about it and more importantly not listening just makes racism something that happens to other people.

One thing I do find hopeful is the young people I teach. They are aware of racism and it has lead to some interesting discussions as to when something is or isn't racist. Is it racist to say you think mehndi looks better on a particular skin colour?

And whilst the discussion of mehndi is not going to change the world the freedom to discuss it just might.

And sometimes things can appear racist that are just out of our own experience. The student who told me I couldn't cook Jamaican food was stunned when I said I can make a mean salt fish and ackee.

She had obviously not come across a white person who can cook Jamaican food before.

I once asked someone in London where they were originally from, I meant his accent, he thought I meant where had his grandparents came from. If I ask anyone now I say, "that's not a local accent, where is it from?"

I wasn't being racist and I was mortified when I realised what he thought I was asking. We ended up laughing, all credit to him.

Theworldisfullofgs · 02/07/2018 06:40

I'm white. I can't even begin to comprehend your experience.
What I can do is not deny it or try and explain it away.
It's crap and won't change I'm afraid until more black (Asian etc) are in powerful positions.
It's terrible the crap Sadiq Khan gets and lots of it, if not the majority of abuse mentions his colour or religion. Boris Johnson was crap (Is crap and possibly has NPD) but didn't get nearly the level of abuse.

Everyone should watch this.

WhoWants2Know · 02/07/2018 07:01

I hate the phrase, "playing the race card". I have only ever heard it used by ignorant white people trying to shut down discussion.

There is no race card. There are people discussing their own experiences of society as a member of their race. There is no excuse for discounting those experiences just because they might make some white person uncomfortable.

SoddingUnicorns · 02/07/2018 07:08

There is no excuse for discounting those experiences just because they might make some white person uncomfortable

Yes, absolutely.

derxa · 02/07/2018 07:15

My DH's boss is black. He is ex armed forces as well and worked himself up through the ranks. He is an incredibly resilient man. But the racism he has too put up with is appalling. It's subtle rather than blatant.

Ghanagirl · 02/07/2018 07:25

OP YANBU there is no such thing as the race card it’s a term invented to prevent you complaining about racism.
If such a card existed I’d hand them out to my beautiful black children nieces nephews etc as protection from bigotry!!

Ghanagirl · 02/07/2018 07:27

@MarthaArthur
You’re making up rubbish

SoddingUnicorns · 02/07/2018 07:43

I think that even the phrase “the race card” is a way of silencing people speaking out about the racism they’ve experienced.

Yes, of course there are people who will say there is racism where there is none, but it needs to be clearly understood that they are vastly in the minority, and absolutely are no excuse for dismissing the experiences of people who have experienced racism in any form.

Ghanagirl · 02/07/2018 07:48

@PremierNaps
The “race card” doesn’t exist if you use that term you are either racist or stupid

OverTheHedgeHammy · 02/07/2018 07:49

I live in a predominantly white area, and am white. One of my regular babysitters is mixed race, one black parent, one white. She and her sisters are FREQUENTLY stopped in their car and breathalysed and their drivers licence is checked. In their group of friends, NONE of their friends have EVER been stopped.

Random my arse. Complete and utter discrimination.

SoddingUnicorns · 02/07/2018 07:52

To put it in perspective, as women, if we heard of a woman making a false rape allegation, would we then use that to pick apart and dismiss any woman disclosing that she’d been raped?

I don’t think so.

So why is this different? Why are people still judged by the colour of their skin?

derxa · 02/07/2018 07:58

Why are people still judged by the colour of their skin? Because people are tribal and like to say 'my tribe is better than yours'. It has gone on since the beginning of time. You may as well ask, 'Why are people still judged by their religion?'

lasttimeround · 02/07/2018 07:58

OP - im not even going to read the thread as im off on holiday and can do without the downer of from how some white folk think race issues are just in my head or justified. Basically im mixed. You are right. And im dont see a way round it. I talk about race with white people very rarely. From the blatant to the structural - i dont see the point. And it frequently gets turned into "shes got issues". So i only talk if im asked a direct question about it.

SoddingUnicorns · 02/07/2018 08:00

@derxa I live in the west of Scotland so I’m well aware of religious prejudices (I’m technically if a lapsed Catholic).

It seems ridiculous that this shit is still socially acceptable, that “tribes” are still a thing, and that division and bitterness seems to be default.

What colour someone’s skin is has always seemed a really odd reason to dislike someone to me, I genuinely just don’t understand it.

03051781boo · 02/07/2018 08:10

My husband is black. From Ghana. My family love him, the colour of his skin has never been an issue. We talk about differences and his experiences and i am aware of the racism he has come across even when the person doesn’t know they’re being racist.

His family hate me. I’ve been spat at, threatened with violence, called all the names under the sun, his sister even objected at our wedding citing he shouldn’t marry me because I’m the ‘white devil’ all because I’m not black and his family wanted him to stick within his own colour. I’ve never had a conversation with any of them as they have no interest in getting to know me at all because I am white.

No doubt this will get twisted because you can’t talk about race/racism as a white person without being told you’re a racist.

OutsSelf · 02/07/2018 08:20

I live in a diverse community with vocal bme leadership in many community led contexts. I am heavily involved in community activism.

Race always becomes an issue at some stage, probably because we live in a racist society.

For me, the difficulty is is that many white people think that the absolute worst thing that can happen around race issues is that someone thinks they are racist. They will do anything to ensure that the fact that they aren't personally racist is the major take home of any discussion on race. It's happening here a bit, too.

I can't think of any way past this. I try always to respond to that by stating I am racist, I grew up in a racist society and went through a racist education system, but I am not sure that ascertaining anyone's individual level of racism is the point of the discussion, we are trying instead to understand how people's work is being undermined or stopped because of how they are having to cope with racism. Whether or not you knew saying x or y was supporting racist relations is not the point, the point is how is this person who is bme supposed to carry on their work in this context? What can we all be doing tp ensure that people can work without having to deal with racism, what can we do to resolve this situation? Because to me, figuring out how racist your intentions were is a distraction.

Ghanagirl · 02/07/2018 08:26

03051781boo
I’m sorry for your experience but I don’t think you’re suffering due to racism, your partners family sound toxic and prejudiced.
I’m not Ghanaian but my husband is

SoddingUnicorns · 02/07/2018 08:28

If they’re calling her the “white devil” I’d say it’s entirely racist no?

WomanWithAltitude · 02/07/2018 08:39

I think that even the phrase “the race card” is a way of silencing people speaking out about the racism they’ve experienced.

Yes, of course there are people who will say there is racism where there is none, but it needs to be clearly understood that they are vastly in the minority, and absolutely are no excuse for dismissing the experiences of people who have experienced racism in any form.

^This.

This is why all of the posters who have piled in to give examples of awful black people 'playing the race card' are being given short shrift.

And all the wide-eyed innocent protestations of "who me? I'm not racist, I was just giving an example!" are bullshit. It's just as bad as piling on to a thread about someone's experience of rape to bring up examples of false accusations.

UpstartCrow · 02/07/2018 08:42

When women talk about male violence towards women, they are often met with 'not all men are like that' and 'women do it too'. Which is irrelevant to the point of the discussion.
And that seems to be happening on this thread.

woollyheart · 02/07/2018 08:47

Is the problem here that people don’t know HOW to have a meaningful and helpful discussion on difficult topics like this?

There is undoubtably an issue because they just don’t perceive the difference between experiencing a single incident and regular repeated incidents over a long period. While a single incident might be shocking, it can easily be dismissed afterwards as outside ‘normal’ behaviour. Persistent repeated offences can no longer be dismissed and you have to start taking them seriously. But they don’t have your experience of past events and so they treat it as a one off event.

There are probably lots of reasons why resulting discussions are not helpful for you. They may believe you but feel powerless to know how to improve things, so just try to empathise by offering up the one incident they know about.

From your perspective, what sort of response from them would lead to a more meaningful discussion?

gamerwidow · 02/07/2018 08:54

Racism is real and it is on the rise. I am white and I would never claim to understand the daily racism minorities face. What I do know is it’s my job to listen to minorities and believe them when they tell me about their experiences.
OP don’t allow yourself to be silenced some of us are listening.

GoodFortuneAttendThee · 02/07/2018 08:56

03051781boo: His family hate me. I’ve been spat at, threatened with violence, called all the names under the sun, his sister even objected at our wedding citing he shouldn’t marry me because I’m the ‘white devil’ all because I’m not black and his family wanted him to stick within his own colour. I’ve never had a conversation with any of them as they have no interest in getting to know me at all because I am white

No doubt this will get twisted because you can’t talk about race/racism as a white person without being told you’re a racist

Ghanagirl: I’m sorry for your experience but I don’t think you’re suffering due to racism, your partners family sound toxic and prejudiced.

Why is this NOT racism? everybody certainly would consider it so if it was 03051781boo's family doing this to her Ghanaian husband.

03051781boo · 02/07/2018 09:01

His family were waiting outside the church when we got married. His brother had a bottle of water and ran over to squirt it at me. My brother tried to wrestle it off of him, it turned into a scuffle and my brother punched him. My brother was arrested for a racially motivated assault. He wasn’t convicted yet why put the ‘racially motivated’ bit in? It wasn’t, he was just protecting me from an attack.

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